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Author Topic: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer  (Read 21579 times)

Ed Littman

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2005, 05:27:31 PM »

I've got both the cd & vinyl.
The lp excellent. It has more depth & is less fatiguing at loud levels compared to the cd.

my concern is that the lp has so much surface noise & there are two strange peep sounds on the left then right side in the beginning of side one that are not on the cd.

any ideas of whats going on...
Ed
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TotalSonic

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2005, 05:58:17 PM »

Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 22:27

I've got both the cd & vinyl.
The lp excellent. It has more depth & is less fatiguing at loud levels compared to the cd.

my concern is that the lp has so much surface noise & there are two strange peep sounds on the left then right side in the beginning of side one that are not on the cd.

any ideas of whats going on...
Ed


Unfortunately I do.  I have been in touch with Michael Fremer from Music Angle regarding this release and he was very interested in reviewing it.  However - he sent me an email immediately after receiving his review copies literally describing them as looking as if they were "packed by monkeys eating big macs for lunch" as they had everything from stains, scratches, fingerprints and grease on them - and wanted to know where they had been pressed.  Well - they were plated and pressed and packed at 33-1/3 (aka Music Connection - which owns the former WEA plant's presses) where RCA has all their vinyl pressed right now.  He got in touch with the head of Music Connection who was extremely concerned and stated that he would get Michael replacement copies from their own archive.  As a further disappointment Michael forwarded me an email from a record distributor who has also had similar problems with about half the copies he received and who had to go through them to make complete good sets.  

Which goes to show you that you can spend as much effort as you possibly can to make sure that everything is perfect in the mastering stage only to have it be ruined in the manufacturing stage.

Anyway - these things should NOT be acceptable on a new record - let alone on one where efforts were made to get it to the highest possible standard.  I suggest returning them as defective for an exchange and if the store you got them at gives you grief for this I would contact Music Connection & RCA regaling them with your problem.  

It's enormously disappointing to me that something I really pained over to get as good as possible has been sabotaged by shoddy quality control - and I'm sorry you had to get bad copies of this.  c'est la vie.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Ed Littman

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2005, 06:14:14 PM »

wow,
that's the inside scoop!

i can see miss handling attribute to the dust, clicks & pops, etc., but the beeps i mentioned sounded like a test tone of some sort. I'd be interested to know how that got in there Confused
Ed
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TotalSonic

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2005, 07:24:56 PM »

Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 23:14

wow,
that's the inside scoop!

i can see miss handling attribute to the dust, clicks & pops, etc., but the beeps i mentioned sounded like a test tone of some sort. I'd be interested to know how that got in there Confused
Ed


Is there a white-ish threading in the grooves where this happens?  Could be noise resulting from scuffing damage if so.  What you are describing certainly wasn't on the master or the test record that I heard.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Ed Littman

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2005, 07:49:30 PM »

there's no visual sign of anything wrong, but a better description is that it sounds like a chirp two in a row. it sound like somthing from an electronic device not from damge to the groove. I'm more curious of what it is & how it got there than anything else.
Ed
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genericperson

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2005, 09:29:31 PM »

wow!

i was about to offer my condolances on Europadisc closing.  But you don't need any, because boy do you know your stuff!

When you break apart a big blob of legos, it's easier to see where the big pieces are.  You're a "big lego", and I'm sure you'll have no problems making your way without Europadisc.

Not that I still play with legos or anything... Embarassed
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TotalSonic

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2005, 09:30:24 PM »

Ed Littman wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 00:49

there's no visual sign of anything wrong, but a better description is that it sounds like a chirp two in a row. it sound like somthing from an electronic device not from damge to the groove. I'm more curious of what it is & how it got there than anything else.
Ed


Damage to stampers or pressings can indeed cause things like brief "chrirps" and aren't necessarily visible.  Usually the very outer diameters is where the risk of these types of things are greatest.  Of course I can't make a complete judgement without being able to check out the record you have and being able to compare it directly to the tests they approved and the master - but I can assure you that if there were any extraneous "beeps" it would have been picked up on when they made the initial test pressings - which had to undergo approval from the album's producers.  

Has anyone else here who has picked up the records heard this on the beginning of the A side??

Anyway - sounds like you definitely should get an exchange for better copies.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Ronny

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2005, 01:23:18 AM »

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 21:30

Ed Littman wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 00:49

there's no visual sign of anything wrong, but a better description is that it sounds like a chirp two in a row. it sound like somthing from an electronic device not from damge to the groove. I'm more curious of what it is & how it got there than anything else.
Ed


Damage to stampers or pressings can indeed cause things like brief "chrirps" and aren't necessarily visible.  Usually the very outer diameters is where the risk of these types of things are greatest.  Of course I can't make a complete judgement without being able to check out the record you have and being able to compare it directly to the tests they approved and the master - but I can assure you that if there were any extraneous "beeps" it would have been picked up on when they made the initial test pressings - which had to undergo approval from the album's producers.  

Has anyone else here who has picked up the records heard this on the beginning of the A side??

Anyway - sounds like you definitely should get an exchange for better copies.

Best regards,
Steve Berson


Sounds to me like he's describing Telex tones, not sure what they are called exactly as they don't sound like typical tape tones, but I had a client one time that complained about chirps on some cassettes and asked me how they got there. They weren't on the cd's and only on 1 out of maybe 30 cassettes. I had no idea as they weren't on the masters that I provided for the cds or the cassettes. It was about 8 or 10 tones played extremely fast, like within 300ms or so and they went in an ascending order maybe 3 octaves. He called me back a few days later and said that they were tones that they used to sync and start up the Telex machines that duped the cassettes. Probably not related to the vinyl issue, but I thought that I'd mention it because his description fits the chirp tones that I heard on the cassettes. It's possible that they were longer tones that were speeded up by the high speed duping, not sure as I didn't talk to the cassette manufacturer, but they weren't supposed to be on there, that's for sure.  
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------Ronny Morris - Digitak Mastering------
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Gold

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2005, 05:30:09 AM »

You really need a microscope to trouble shoot properly. I think what Steve calls "scuffing" I call "non-fill". Under the microscope you can see little bubbles or ragged spots on the top edge of the groove. Usually at the outer diameter of the disk and usually on the outer edge of the groove. It looks whitish to the naked eye. We call marks that happen after the record comes out of the ram scuffs. Either in the transport or the trimmer.
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Paul Gold
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TotalSonic

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2005, 12:55:09 PM »

Gold wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 10:30

You really need a microscope to trouble shoot properly. I think what Steve calls "scuffing" I call "non-fill". Under the microscope you can see little bubbles or ragged spots on the top edge of the groove. Usually at the outer diameter of the disk and usually on the outer edge of the groove. It looks whitish to the naked eye. We call marks that happen after the record comes out of the ram scuffs. Either in the transport or the trimmer.


I think we're pretty much on the same page but to just to clarify my semantics:

For me scuffing means the damage that occurs to the grooves when either
1) the stamper is seperated from the mother and the stamper accidentally is banged back onto the mother (usually occurs because of poor passivation, or the stamper being pulled off too slowly or jerkily, or too much passivation where the stamper just falls right off of the mother) or
2) the record slaps back onto the stamper during pressing after the molds initially pull apart due to the stampers not being adequately secured down on the molds (and more likely to happen on programs where there are sections where modulations are low and where groove depth is minimal)

Non-fill to me means the problems caused by improper temperature or bad heat dispersion on the molds or from incorrectly set cycle times leading to the vinyl not flowing properly and fully into the grooves.  

I think on second thought that you are right in thinking this might be a problem with non-fill.
Both could lead to the problems that Ed is detailing but again as you said - it would help to have a microscope and the orignal parts to figure out the what/why/where/when's

I'm now wishing that RCA had pressed this release at Brooklyn Phono! - where obviously there is someone who cares about QC - because then I seriously doubt we'd have any of these problems ever.  I think RCA probably just went for whatever plant was the cheapest and most "convenient" to them though, as they wouldn't even let me get a bid in for Europadisk to do the pressing.

Best regards,
Steve Berson  

Gold

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2005, 01:51:30 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 12:55



I think we're pretty much on the same page but to just to clarify my semantics:



Yes. We agree. Scuffing is when something bangs against something else. Non-fill is when the mold isn't formed properly in the heat cycle. If it's destroyed in the cooling cycle we call it "cracking" but we made that term up. Non-fill has that whitish look to it.

Quote:


I'm now wishing that RCA had pressed this release at Brooklyn Phono!


There are only two presses here. We couldn't do an order that big. We would have turned it down.
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Paul Gold
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Art of Vinyl

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2005, 08:34:23 AM »

If we wanted to be super-clear, here's a mini-glossary:

Release scuff occurs when, either because of horns or a molding-related issue, like flash slipping out of a gripper, too much flash, flexing stamper, record take-out moving around when the press opens, wet labels, bad centre-plate, not enough steam delay and many other possible reasons, the record slaps back against the stamper when the press opens. The release scuff may or may not sound - it depends if it just happens to be on the land and whether the track is very loud through that area. Generally, it's something you want to fix, which, sometimes, means polishing the mother on very loud sides. This obviously isn't necessary with DMM sides as the copper, while amorphous, doesn't ride up like lacquer as the chip separates.

Separation damage occurs when either the father slaps the mother during part separation after plating or the same thing happens to the stamper. If it's a two step (again, referring to lacquers since DMM is a mother) then the father is the stamper and the separation damage may or may not be audible - like to be audible with, say, a Van Den Hull stylus or something like that. If the mother has separation damage and it's all on the land, it may not look nice, but if it doesn't sound, it will probably be okay to run. If it's a three step, you might want to make another mother if there's no safety (and with run sizes what they are today, doesn't anyone still make safety mothers?) If the stamper has separation damage, it will appear as "stitching" at the bottom of the groove. That stamper should be tossed.

Non-fill can be caused by a goodly number of factors or factors in combination. Horns can cause non-fill. Too slow of a squeeze, material too hot, too cold, skinning, a draft on the bisquit cup (!), bisquit not centering in the press, not enough slow-squeeze pressure, wet labels (white non-fill at the ID areas), material too hard, material too soft, zones out of balance, leaking condensate - it goes on and on. Non-fill will sound like "frrrippp" in one channel similar to separation damage but sep damage will be at the bottom of the groove and more likely to be heard in both or one or the other channel. Since material is missing from where the stylus is trying to play, and since it's right at the land-groove juncture, it's very unlikely that a loud section will cover it up. Since it's variable from piece to piece, one can't just sample a few and make a decision - each piece has to be QC'ed through the non-fill area and the problem has to be corrected.

Yup, if you're anal retentive like me, then vinyl pressing is the business for you.
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Art Blavis
Old Fellow From The Land Of Vinyl

TotalSonic

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2005, 08:47:08 AM »

Hey Art -
Very nice to "see" you here - it's kind of like a Europadisk reunion.  Very glad you're contributing some of your vast experience to this board also.

Are you still running Advanced Media?  If so I might have some work for you guys sometime in the near future.  If you could email me at sb at totalsonicmedia dot com your current contact info would be great.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Art of Vinyl

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2005, 10:15:53 AM »

Thanks for saying such kind things. I've always told people that you're a very nice young man.

This business is something else. I almost feel bad for you. It's the ultimate addiction. It's like what Michael Corleone says in (the very bad, IMHO) Godfather III, "just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in..."

Honestly, if I could get my hands on a press or two, I would be very happy. Even for fun. It might be hard for people to understand the kind of pleasure that comes from knowing just what to do with the right equipment set up just so to get it juuuuust right - oh, wait a minute, these are mastering engineers! The difference is the sweat pouring down during June. And July and August. Oh, yeah - and September . . .

This site is a revelation - everyone sharing what, when I started out, were highly guarded secrets. You could go into Herbie Power's room (at F/W) and his rack would be covered with a black cloth while he was cutting sides. Here, it's like the Summer of Love for people with ears. Very cool.

Last thing - I've been reading through your posts and they're very interesting. It's a wonder you have time for anything else.

I e-mailed you prior, but I'll re-email you shortly.

One last thing before I forget - I read where you were summing: those were Jim's settings. I didn't agree (and in the eighties, one mostly got properly engineered masters from the majors anyhow) and generally were at 75/150, VAL on and didn't cut anywhere as near as hot as the modern era. I cut (yes, I) four sides (12" singles) for Madonna/Maroder and Laurie Anderson's Big Science and the other was Heartbreak, I think, both subsequently recut in production at Warner to lacquer (WEA) but both cut that way. Just to think of all the classic mothers that are in the racks there, trapped. They should go to the Smithsonian instead Pinz the nickel dealer.

Best,

Art
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Art Blavis
Old Fellow From The Land Of Vinyl

The Town Halo

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Re: Foo Fighters vinyl & the art of the flat transfer
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2005, 10:48:03 AM »

Hi, TotalSonic, thanks for posting that!

The funny thing is that all Foo Fighters albums I own are strictly on vinyl! It started in '95 when I got the first album on vinyl. (Which of course, is still the best....it was all Dave Grohl, drums and all, before he started selling out)

I loved how the first one sounded, so I bought The Colour and the Shape on the same format. While not as good as the first, Grohl still drummed on most of the album, and there were a lot of great songs.....

I was horrified when the third album came out, and stayed as far away from it as possible. This is where they completely sold out. "Learn To Fly" sounds like any other terrible mainstream artist of the 90's (Third Eye Blind, etc.)......yuck....

One By One blew me away. I really believed they were finished after the last album. My girlfriend bought me the 2-record 10" vinyl set for Valentine's Day! The pressing is not as good as the vinyl cuts I have for the first two albums, but it still sounds pretty good. It's definitely their best album since the debut, as well as the first good "full band" Foo Fighters album, and a return to greatness for Grohl.

Did you have anything to do with the vinyl copies of the first two albums? You mentioned that you mastered the new album from 24-bit wav files....does this mean that the album was recorded digitally? Do you know if any of their album were recorded on an analog format? I don't see how the vinyl copy could sound as good as the CD when it's going from digital to analog. However, I really like "Best Of You" and planned on picking up the vinyl release, anyway (since it's kind of a trend for me with this band)....I'll let you know my thoughts when I do.....
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