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[Yiannis]

Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers!


Yiannis

[Phillip Graham]

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 08:56

Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers! Yiannis

Soffit speakers are not indicative of 99% of the listening environments the music will be played in.

[barefoot]

I used to be a big proponent of soffit mounting.  Now I'm more on the fence about it.

With soffits you can create an early reflection free (never completely) zone.   And this is unquestionably a good thing.   The other thing that soffit mounting gets you is a flat power response to go along with your flat on-axis frequency response.    Freestanding speakers require a -6dB high frequency shelf in order to compensate for the "baffle step": the fact that the high frequencies radiate hemispherically while the lows radiate omni-directionally due to the finite size of the speaker cabinet.    

And it's this flat power response that now has me questioning its validity.   A flat power response would seem to be a good thing theoretically, but the vast majority of listeners have freestanding speakers.   So, from a translation perspective, soffit mounting seems to be  less than ideal.   You can imagine that a freestanding power response could be simulated by adjusting the relative HF and LF absorption levels  in the room.   However, you don't want to make the room more dead in the high end, so you have to make it more live the low end.   Then you're faced with the issue of enhanced room modes and such.

I think the ultimate solution is a soffit mount arrangement in a room with widely splayed walls and ceiling, whose reverberant response has a relative +6dB LF step.   This way you get the best of both worlds: a reflection free zone along with the more translatable power response of a freestanding speaker.   Next best is freestanding speakers pulled far way from the walls (preferably splayed)  in a large room.  

[ammitsboel]

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 13:56

Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers!

Maybe because the speakers that offers this option often doesn't sound as good as the non soffit mounted.

[zetterstroem]

never.....ever.....ever heard a soffitmounted speaker sound good....

and for some reason no high-end hifi-geeks have soffit mounted speakers as well.... it's not because of the price...... those guys use $20,000 on an amp and drill holes in the floor for their subs to use the appartment below.....

i don't know the theory behind it.... but if it sounds better it sounds better... and i say at least 2-3 feet to the nearest wall... even with small speakers....

[dcollins]

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 05:56

Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers! Yiannis

Bernie Grundman does, in stereo and surround.  In a sense, so does Doug, as they are built into the wall.

DC

[bblackwood]

The only soffit mounted speakers I've ever heard that I liked were the Kinoshita's in the Hidley mastering rooms at Masterfonics. Dunno if they're still there (that was about 6 years ago) but they were breath-taking.

If more soffit mounted speakers sounded like that, they would be a viable alternative for me. Of course, it hasn't hurt Bernie Grundman...

[turtletone]

I think the reason most homes don't have them is not because of quality but because of practicality.

I've heard very good soffit mounted monitors. I think that it would cost about twice as much to get a good sounding soffit monitor as opposed to free standing. I know that's why I have free standing.

[Garrett H]

I spoke to Wes LaChot and Dave from ADAM about soffits at Tape Op.

I gues the big thing is you kind of go in and design the room around the speakers and hope you like it.  with free standing, you can swap easier.

I'm not about to suggest one sounds better than the other, but I'm guessing from cost and flexibility factors, we'll continue to see more freestanding-based studios.

Still want them in the mix room, though.  

The guys at Piety Street have a great set of Dynaudio S3s and they just don't have the same bass as if the were soffitted (they are on stands at present).

GH

[Zilla]

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 05:56

Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers!

Firstly, some mastering studios do have soffit mounted speakers.

There are various reasons why some mastering studios you have seen do not have soffit mounted speakers.  One is that some engineers may simply have a preference for floor standers.  Another is that the job of implementing the mounting of soffit mounted monitors for optimum acoustics is difficult.  The mastering facilities which have soffits generally have had full time technical staffs with the knowledge and experience to pull it off.  This is true of such studios as the MasteringLab, the former A&M mastering, and both our facilities in Hollywood and Tokyo.

[dcollins]

Zilla wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 20:46

This is true of such studios as the MasteringLab, the former A&M mastering, and both our facilities in Hollywood and Tokyo.

Who is using only soffit mounted speakers?

DC

[Zilla]

dcollins wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 20:53

Zilla wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 20:46  This is true of such studios as the MasteringLab, the former A&M mastering, and both our facilities in Hollywood and Tokyo. Who is using only soffit mounted speakers?

I am not clear as to what your question is asking as referenced to my quote.  

Are you asking who among those studios listed rely exclusively on soffit mounted speakers?  

[Bob Olhsson]

Soffit mounted "big" speakers often take the blame for the seriously misguided control room treatments and equalization practices that were common in the 1970s and still linger on.

I've never experienced any translation issues that could be attributed to the use of soffits or to the lack of them.

[ammitsboel]

Zilla wrote on Tue, 14 June 2005 04:46

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 05:56 Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers! Firstly, some mastering studios do have soffit mounted speakers. There are various reasons why some mastering studios you have seen do not have soffit mounted speakers.  One is that some engineers may simply have a preference for floor standers.  Another is that the job of implementing the mounting of soffit mounted monitors for optimum acoustics is difficult.  The mastering facilities which have soffits generally have had full time technical staffs with the knowledge and experience to pull it off.  This is true of such studios as the MasteringLab, the former A&M mastering, and both our facilities in Hollywood and Tokyo.

Have your Tannoys been modified to a great extent?
How long did it take to do the room acoustics?

[Zilla]

ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 14 June 2005 07:12

Have your Tannoys been modified to a great extent?

yes

ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 14 June 2005 07:12

How long did it take to do the room acoustics?

months

[ammitsboel]

Thanks for the short and secret answers Scott-Zilla

[zetterstroem]

i've managed to capture scott-zilla on film !!!  

[bblackwood]

ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 01:33

Thanks for the short and secret answers Scott-Zilla

Are there more questions you have? I'm sure Scott would be willing to help so long as he wasn't betraying his employer's hard work.

Again, I've heard soffit mount speakers sound absolutely stunning one time, so I know they can sound good - but I've heard them sound bad so many times I'm also sure it's easy to screw them. I've definitely heard a higher ratio of rooms with free-standing monitors sound good...

[ammitsboel]

Scott, I've heard that the Tannoys where upgraded with new voice coils? Do you regard the modified ones much better than the originals? do they use cobalt magnets?

[Rob Darling]

When flush-mounted speakers are done right, it is just fantastic.  Nothing can touch them.  The problem is that most room designers don't REALLY understand monitors and how to properly integrate them, and they come out badly.  It is an expensive, ballsy thing to experiment with someone's room buildout money, and even moreso to take on the challenge and expense of their monitoring as well.  Given how few big rooms get built, it is easy to see how few have really ventured into doing the whole package with a big enough budget to do it all right.  Hence, a lot of bad rooms that don't really do justice to the idea.  

[Zilla]

ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 05:03

I've heard that the Tannoys where upgraded with new voice coils?

Which particular Tannoy model are you refering to?

[Zilla]

zetterstroem wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 01:40

i've managed to capture scott-zilla on film !!!

Everybody gets fifteen minutes of fame.  Ah, my shining moment.

[ammitsboel]

Zilla wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 16:13

ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 05:03 I've heard that the Tannoys where upgraded with new voice coils? Which particular Tannoy model are you refering to?

Are all the soffit mounted Tannoys at BG different?
Tell us about all of them.

[ammitsboel]

Zilla wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 16:15

zetterstroem wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 01:40 i've managed to capture scott-zilla on film !!!   Everybody gets fifteen minutes of fame.  Ah, my shining moment.

I can tell on the picture that you liked it!! wish it was me

[Zilla]

ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 15 June 2005 08:17

Tell us about all of them.

I am sure you understand that I am not at liberty to discuss details.  However, you do not need to feel that you are missing out on anything.  The drivers we use are not available anymore and the configuration we have implemented is designed around our studio acoustics in particular.

[bobkatz]

ammitsboel wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 10:03

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 10 June 2005 13:56 Just wondering,why mastering studios don't have soffit  speakers! Maybe because the speakers that offers this option often doesn't sound as good as the non soffit mounted.

Soffit-based design requires extreme skill and experience more often screwed-up by wannabe acousticians. I probably can count the number of good-sounding soffit-built rooms I've heard over 30 years on the fingers of two hands! Glenn Meadows' ex room (Tom Hidley design) was one of those, it reminded me how great a well-designed soffit-room can sound.

BK

[bblackwood]

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 19 June 2005 15:12

Glenn Meadows' ex room (Tom Hidley design) was one of those, it reminded me how great a well-designed soffit-room can sound.

Exactly the space I thought of when I saw this thread (the only one I've ever heard that sounded good) - AFAIC that room set the benchmark for how monitors should sound...

[ammitsboel]

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 01:44

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 19 June 2005 15:12 Glenn Meadows' ex room (Tom Hidley design) was one of those, it reminded me how great a well-designed soffit-room can sound. Exactly the space I thought of when I saw this thread (the only one I've ever heard that sounded good) - AFAIC that room set the benchmark for how monitors should sound...

Is that room still running?