Tom
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 09:23:28 PM »
Howlback, you are right. Because are not coincident makes them not Blumlein. My bad.
I'll tell you something funny about those magnets. I had one on snare for a guy playing brushes. The brushes kept sticking to the mic while he was swirling and we had to use a different mic. (I wasn't great for that app, coincidentally.)
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2005, 02:09:06 AM »
The 4038s are bidirectional (figure eight). The overheads in the picture are not really ORTF, NOS or any of that in the strictest sense because those systems are based on a cardioid pattern.
But to me, it looks like they'll give a pretty damn good stereo image of the kit with minimal phase cancellation and just enough timing differential to make the kit sound wide. This is something that coincident can be hit and miss about...
I suppose that an exact 90 degrees would be the theoretical optimum with those mics, and William's mics are real close to that, from the picture about 110 degrees, very much like NOS positioning.
I dig the drums being in the corner, with the walls damped at just the right spots to kill the immediate slap.
Still though, I'm scared to put the ribbons up on a guy that's smacking an SPL optimized (tuned) kit.
Someone please tell me it's OK....
Cheers,
E
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2005, 05:49:34 AM »
Eric, we were talking about the 4038s being Blumlein. Of course the U87s are not. That is actually how I almost always position my stereo OHs, with the mics being equidistant from the snare.
I don't see any reason why you can't use 4038s, R84s, Royers or b160s on drums. Like I said, they used a 4038 as the one of only 2 mics on Ringo at on period. I have a friend who put the ribbon material from an RCA 77 on his b160s, and he uses those exclusively as his OHs. I've used the R84 OH without any problems and I'm sure that if Ross can put Royers directly on a Rivera cabinet, you can use them anywhere on a drum kit.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2005, 12:53:21 PM »
| J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 11 June 2005 05:49 |
Eric, we were talking about the 4038s being Blumlein. Of course the U87s are not. That is actually how I almost always position my stereo OHs, with the mics being equidistant from the snare.
I don't see any reason why you can't use 4038s, R84s, Royers or b160s on drums. Like I said, they used a 4038 as the one of only 2 mics on Ringo at on period. I have a friend who put the ribbon material from an RCA 77 on his b160s, and he uses those exclusively as his OHs. I've used the R84 OH without any problems and I'm sure that if Ross can put Royers directly on a Rivera cabinet, you can use them anywhere on a drum kit.
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Thanks JJ!! EB
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2005, 01:26:44 PM »
| Eric Bridenbaker wrote on Sat, 11 June 2005 07:09 |
Still though, I'm scared to put the ribbons up on a guy that's smacking an SPL optimized (tuned) kit.
Someone please tell me it's OK....
Cheers,
E
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Jeez, whats the point of havin them if you can't use them as overheads!  Ribbons sound awesome over drums. I think you are being a bit TOO careful. If you are worried just angle them a bit so that any air movement doesn't hit them at 90 degrees. I put my 122 and R84 in front of very loud sources all the time, I just angle the mike a bit for safety so as not to damage the ribbon with air blasts. Plus they will sound distorted at a certain point as well. You can lean it forward or twist it slightly sideways, this works well for close vocals into ribbons as well. Something to consider in small rooms when using ribbons or bidirectional mics as OH's is if you have a low ceiling you may want to consider where the back side of the mike is pointing, as you may get some phase problems from sound coming off the ceiling.
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2005, 01:42:11 PM »
Walt, i don't get it. Your one 4038 is basically collecting reflections off the wall?????
I find that amusing cause i have a vocal booth that is padded like you are inside a big pillow except for the 2 big doors(hard surface).
If i put the kit in there and have the kik facing one particular door, i get an enormous amount of kik in the OH's cause it is a foot and a half away from the door and all the sound just bounces off and goes strait up to those mikes, it is very cool.
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2005, 04:09:52 PM »
AFAIK Blumlein is the only standard stereo technique one that requires fig. 8. The reason I asked was because from the pic, the angle looks greater than 90 deg., and there's a gap between the mics. The Glynn John's 87 explains it alright though.
Where's Walt gone? Don't tell me he's actually DOING a session?? He should be in here talking about it instead!
4038s are very durable, more than the received wisdom would have you believe. They are standard in (good) theatre as overheads. Mine was badly abused by the previous owner- it was even used as part of a PA! It doesn't sound pristine (lacks a little top compared to fresher examples) but still a fabulous mic. Just beautiful on cello.
A pair make a fabulous overhead- as mentioned, what's the point in having them if you can't use them! Albini has 8 or something. There are always a few off being re- ribboned, coz he uses them on guitar cabs. An excellent use I think!
The room/ compressed trick is a good one. This is even better- position one at about knee level, between kick and snare, and get a nice balance by positioning. Then compress the nanas out of it, preferably with something really stupid like an Alesis 3630 or Yamaha SPX90. Do your drum balance as normal, then add in the Coles for extra excitement. It works more effectively than you might think from the description- it literally does add excitement. Good for repeat business...
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2005, 08:30:51 PM »
Tom
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2005, 11:04:17 AM »
 O ya! MS is the main thing I use my single 4038 for... It was late when I posted, OK?? The DPA mic university doesn't cover everything then...
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2005, 11:18:30 AM »
Wat's up with the paint job in that studio though? The managers 3-year-old on a sugar o/d?
Marco
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2005, 11:57:13 AM »
Tom
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2005, 01:56:36 PM »
For those interested, a nice two part article on stereo techniques appeared in Sound on Sound Magazine Feb 97.
They touched on Tony Faulkner's method. Also I've seen another article floating around the web on how he does surround.
Quote Article
"In the case of the ORTF technique, the basic configuration uses a pair of cardioid microphones with a mutual angle of 110
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2005, 02:53:17 PM »
More on Stereo Technique:
Heres what I got, culled from various sources. Hope it's more or less accurate. Feel free to correct...
Spaced pairs using cardioids:
ORTF (France) 17cm/110 degrees
NOS (Netherlands) 30cm/90 degrees
RAI (Italy) 21cm/100 degrees
DIN (Germany) 20cm/90 degrees
OLSON 20cm/135 degrees
Coincident pairs:
X/Y uses cardioids at 90 derees
Blumlein uses figure eights at 90 degrees
M/S uses a cardioid facing foward and a figure 8 at 90 degrees to
pick up the side channel. Sound is fed into a M/S matrix.
Binaural:
Dummy Head - Mics are placed in a dummy head which simulates the phase and frequency differences between ears. Best played back on headphones. Transaural is a processing technique to carry the effect over to stereo loudspeakers.
Blumlein difference technique uses two omnis, pointed forward about ears distance apart and seperated by an absorbent baffle. Frequencies below 700 Hz are fed into a shuffler which converts phase variance into amplitude change to separate bass frequencies into left and right.
Other:
Decca tree configuration uses 3 omnidirectional microphones in a triangular pattern, with the two rear mics about 140cm apart and the front mic about 75cm forward. The rear mics are panned and the front mic is blended in.
The Soundfield microphone, developed for Ambisonic recording was designed to capture 3 Dimensional sound along X/Y and Z axis (thus the information pertaining to height is recorded as well). Uses four coincident cardioids in a tetrahedral arrangement. Through a rather complex matrixing, the highest degree of sound field manipulation is availiable to the user.
Cheers,
EB
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