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Author Topic: my current drum set-up  (Read 11268 times)

compasspnt

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2005, 03:39:47 pm »

index.php/fa/1203/0/
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wwittman

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2005, 04:33:12 pm »

The 4038's are NEAR 90 degrees and awfully close to a Blumlein pick-up, though, quite rightly identified as not EXACTLY correct Blumlein stereo.

But it's the idea.
It's a decent one perspective stereo pickup of the whole kit.

If i wanted a more spaced image I'd do my usual 4038's in FRONT of the kit.
in that, small-ish, room, the over view seemed to work better (i started in front and moved them)

I should add that we've had a rack tom up and sometimes some other rack mounted oddball drums.

So the top side 87 is not always hanging over nothingness.

The 87's are in cardioid.
The inaccurately named Glyn Johns "method" uses the low side mic in just about that same place, but puts the high mic much higher and more over the center of the kit.
This is more over the line of the hanger toms (if there)

they're panned right and left. Completely.

But as I said, I tend to use EITHER the 87's or the 4038's... not both.

The RE20 always works well for me in the bass drum... that or an SM-7 are my favourites.

It's difficult to position 4038's closer than that because their magnets pull them together!
How's that for a "technical reason"?!

sorry to be slow in posting.. but i'm really burning it at all ends.
In the studio EVERY day, had one day off from recording and used it to mix a Dar Williams single.. then went down to Atlantic City on Thursday to play 2 shows.. drove back today and back in the studio tomorrow.
i don't have an actual day OFF for another 2 weeks.

(whinge, whinge)

so no one has a comment on the guitar UM900?
or the ATC monitors?
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William Wittman
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CCC

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2005, 04:33:37 pm »

Eric B. referred to a number of near-coincident techniques in his posting. Michael Williams paper "The Stereophonic Zoom" might help interested parties gain more insight into the effect of varied spacing and angular inclusion in near-coincident stereo techniques;

http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom .pdf

The article might qualify as "intellectual heavy lifting". If you have ever used the word "hellacool" in a sentence then this may not be the source for you.
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Tomás Mulcahy

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2005, 06:01:19 pm »

John Sorensen wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 16:57

Tom

J.J. Blair

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2005, 11:49:17 am »

William, you want a comment on the guitar set up?  Well, I don't know about the mic, but is that a Floyd Rose or some such nonsense on that strat like thingy?  OK, I can handle active EQ in the bass, but a Floyd Rose?  :shudder:

Wink
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howlback

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2005, 02:51:45 pm »

Here is the scoop as far as I can tell on 4038s and Loud Sources.   It comes from somebody who was working at AEA and has repaired countless 4038s.

From my reliable source:
"Any ribbon would be fine as an overhead as long as it's not getting
agressive air bursts - so at least a foot or two away.  I would be
reluctant to use a 4038 on a kick drum, though (maybe with a
windscreen, but I personally would still be hesitant).  The Coles
ribbon material is incredibly thin and fragile so
it can be damaged/torn pretty easily.  The AEA mics would be fine with
a windscreen, and I've heard the Royers are too.  I've used an R84
inside a kick drum (placed horizontal on a pillow with the nulls up
and down) and it sounded AMAZING and didn't stretch the ribbon... Wes
told me that's a technique they used in early radio - they even used
ribbons on gunshots (off-axis) so they can handle SPL (depending on
the frequency).  The concern is more the air...

The issue with the 4038 is that it's more susceptible to bass damage -
I've worked on mics that I could tell were fried from being placed in
front of a loud bass amp.  It's sort of similar to a woofer of a
speaker moving further when reproducing low frequencies - the ribbon
can hit it's protective windscreen if it's moving too widely which
will damage it.  The interesting thing about the 4038s is that the
ribbon is only actually at the top inch of the mic - the majority of
the egg shape is actually the magnet.  So that can probably be used to
your advantage during mic placement to avoid air bursts..."

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howlback

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2005, 03:27:03 pm »

John Sorensen wrote on Sat, 11 June 2005 20:30


And, for a non-standard technique....drum roll please....the ES pair with omni S and bidirectional M.
Endless fun with stereo techniques using figure 8s Smile


Hey John!

I have usually seen the "S" in E-S as back to back cardiods, panned hard left and right, with the left cardiod out of polarity.  One way to do this is to use a Braunmuhl-Weber mic (like a 414) which has a separate output for each capsule (Pearl used to make one).

You might describe the S in E-S as 180 degree X-Y with one mic out of polarity.  It is different than regular S in that there is some kind of pressure component to the signal.  It may not cancel completely when summed to mono (depending on the information contained in the both S signals).

Another great way to use spaced bi-directionals is as room mics.  Point the nulls towards the source .  Kind of like the front half of a 'Hamasaki Square".  I seem to recall John Eargle suggesting this technique somewhere.    
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CCC

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2005, 03:55:44 pm »

howlback wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 20:27

I have usually seen the "S" in E-S as back to back cardiods, panned hard left and right, with the left cardiod out of polarity.  One way to do this is to use a Braunmuhl-Weber mic (like a 414) which has a separate output for each capsule (Pearl used to make one).

You might describe the S in E-S as 180 degree X-Y with one mic out of polarity.  It is different than regular S in that there is some kind of pressure component to the signal.  It may not cancel completely when summed to mono (depending on the information contained in the both S signals).

Another great way to use spaced bi-directionals is as room mics.  Point the nulls towards the source .  Kind of like the front half of a 'Hamasaki Square".  I seem to recall John Eargle suggesting this technique somewhere.    



Thanks for the follow up posting. Those Pearl mics are great, although you rarely see them around, eh?

I reckon you are right about the 180 degree coincident cardioids being the usual ES setup. But you do agree that the omni/bi version achieves the same result, or am I mistaken? (I mult the omni, pan L/R, invert polarity on one side, then add the bidirectional panned up center to achieve the same end result of back to back cardioids in inverse polarity). Please advise.

Also, at your convenience could you suggest a comprehensive resource on various surround mic techniques? The version of Geoff Martin's text that I have is of course excellent, but incomplete on the subject of surround micing. Perhaps it has been updated - not sure. I've surfed by the DPA site but, once again, although it's great it's perhaps not comprehensive. What do you suggest for a source of info? (and don't say "the proceedings of the 24th AES Conference")  Smile
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Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2005, 07:54:17 pm »

John Sorensen wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 16:33

Eric B. referred to a number of near-coincident techniques in his posting. Michael Williams paper "The Stereophonic Zoom" might help interested parties gain more insight into the effect of varied spacing and angular inclusion in near-coincident stereo techniques;

  http://www.rycote.com/products/pdf/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom .pdf

The article might qualify as "intellectual heavy lifting". If you have ever used the word "hellacool" in a sentence then this may not be the source for you.

Great read. A definite step towards a standardized approach. Love the isobars, and also the section on how to measure distances and angles using a sheet of good ol' A4 paper.

I suppose that even similar sized cardioid mics would have slightly different pickup patterns from model to model, but this paper is a great way to get started, and to become familiar with the effects of the different configurations. Kick Ass!!!

Cheers,
EB
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howlback

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2005, 10:17:43 pm »

John Sorensen wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 15:55

I reckon you are right about the 180 degree coincident cardioids being the usual ES setup. But you do agree that the omni/bi version achieves the same result, or am I mistaken? (I mult the omni, pan L/R, invert polarity on one side, then add the bidirectional panned up center to achieve the same end result of back to back cardioids in inverse polarity). Please advise.

Hi again John, Smile
In your description, the M (forward facing mic) was Bi, and the S was Omni.  This will give you synthesized 180 degree XY cardioids with one mic facing the source (0 degrees) and another away from the source (180 degrees) provided they are used in equal ratios:  

X= M (bi) + S (omni) positive polarity (forward)
Y= M (bi) - S (omni) positive polarity (backward)

You are almost at "Synthesized or Matrixed ES".  You just need to do the following:

1.  Turn the bidirectional so that it is facing sideways like an S mic(this will turn the synthesized cardioids 90 degrees)

2. Flip the polarity of the derived Y channel to reverse one of the synthesized cardioids, so that -Y=invert(m-S)

So "Synthesized or Matrixed ES" is almost MS (with an Omni as M, Bidirectional as S) but has the right channel flipped post MS matrix. Does that make sense or did I screw it up?

It may be important to note that reality is different from theory and that back-to-back cardioids will not be 100 percent identical to their synthesized equivalents.  The matrixed technique you mention has an advantage in that the synthesized left and right cardioids are guaranteed to be perfectly matched.  ES with 2 Cards and ES with a Bi and Omni will probably collapse to mono slightly differently as well.

My previous post described the "S" in ES in an incorrect manner.  Because it is back to back Cardioids (either real or synthetic) I guess there is no S.  ES stands for Extended Sides.

BTW, if you use 2 bidirectionals at 90 degrees and an omni all coincident, you can synthesize anything at any angle.  See Michael Gerzon and ambisonics for details...

John Sorensen wrote on Mon, 13 June 2005 15:55


Also, at your convenience could you suggest a comprehensive resource on various surround mic techniques? The version of Geoff Martin's text that I have is of course excellent, but incomplete on the subject of surround micing. Perhaps it has been updated - not sure. I've surfed by the DPA site but, once again, although it's great it's perhaps not comprehensive. What do you suggest for a source of info? (and don't say "the proceedings of the 24th AES Conference")  Smile


Michael Williams has a couple of AES papers expanding his view of spaced stereo technique to surround - so mostly dealing with spacings and angles for 5 cardioids (the reference you give above is better than his AES papers on stereo technique IMHO).

"Spatial Audio" by Francis Rumsey (2001 ISBN 0-240-51623-0) is still probably the best starting reference.  For new stuff, I guess you have to go into the journals etc.  Tomlinson Holman has a book, but from what I remember it doesn't go into detail regarding mic technique.
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wwittman

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2005, 11:42:29 pm »

Well spotted, JJ, on the Floyd... but so far no electric guitar has made an appearance.

It's all that, rather nice, late 50's, Martin.

The Schecter 'strat' with the Floyd belongs to the guitar player, Jamie West-Oram.
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William Wittman
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howlback

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2005, 12:25:04 am »

wwittman wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 16:33

The 4038's are NEAR 90 degrees and awfully close to a Blumlein pick-up, though, quite rightly identified as not EXACTLY correct Blumlein stereo...It's difficult to position 4038's closer than that because their magnets pull them together! How's that for a "technical reason"?!
I hear Ya !
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howlback

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2005, 12:29:29 am »

Sorry, double post.
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arconaut

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2005, 09:38:20 am »

Re: The ATC monitors.

Those things weigh a ton! I think ATC recommends them being on stands. But then, in my experience it was hard to get them on stands because of their tripod feet, which didn't fit on the stands I had on hand when I demoed these monitors. So logistically, they are a bit awkward. We ended up putting them up on a piece of plywood periously balanced on the meter-bridge of an SSL9K (not the beefiest desk to hold heavy monitors). Hack!

We had them up for about a week and I had mixed (so to speak) feelings about them. I used to work in a studio that had a pair of big 150's, and it was the first large monitor that I enjoyed working on for the better part of the day. These smaller ones, I feel, were similar to NS10's in the sense that if things start sounding big, you know you're onto something. They are not flattering at all, which is a good thing, but maybe not so fun to listen to all day, which left me yearning for something a little different.

If I were buying a powered nearfield in that price range, I think I'd go for a pair of Klein and Hummel O300D's, which I thought sounded great, very comfortable to listen to, and terific imaging. Perhaps similar to the Meyers a bit. This is not to put down the ATC's, William. If you like them and get good results from them, that's all that matters. They do not suck. They are not NS10's.


Re: drum micing and stereo techniques. Sometimes I wonder if mic'ing drums "wrong" is much more interesting than setting up proper stereo overheads. (Obviously depending on the musical context).

Re: The desk. I'd comment, but I don't want to start drooling on my keyboard.

PS I think Jamie West-Oram is an amazing player! So underrated.
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Fig

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Re: my current drum set-up
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2005, 11:45:26 am »

wwittman wrote on Sun, 12 June 2005 15:33



so no one has a comment on the guitar UM900?





I'm sure its too late, but it would be cool to see the mic positioned in front of the instrument.  I bet that chair sounds real authentic, though Rolling Eyes

How do you position the 900 on an acoustic, William?  near the hole, some particular fret, pointing in a particular way???

Also, what is the little guy on the snare drum?  KM84? or something else?  Its hidden real well in both photos.

Nice desk, huh?  Is that your place??

Best regards,

Fig

(editted:  I wrote "Walt" but meant "William", coulda been worse, I guess... Embarassed)
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