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[hargerst]

We have a new 32 channel Tascam DM24 digital recording board for Studio B, and it's tiny, but extremely powerful.  Full automation, total recall of everything, motorized faders, built in compressors and effects, and all in this tiny footprint.  I can barely get it to power up for me.  It took me over a week to get it to talk to our other equipment.  And it got me to thinking about the future - and the past.

The first video game was called "Pong" - a paddle on the left and right side of the screen, and a bouncing dot.  (Okay, we were easily amused.)  Today, we have Lara Croft, Final Fantasy, and dozens of high-tech, super-graphics video games, and movies like: Sin City, Star Wars, Matrix, and Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, all shot against green screens, where some of the actors are real, but none of the sets.  All that computer technology is also to found in Xbox, Playstations, and Nintendo devices - and now in audio.

The biggest change is in how we learn to operate this stuff.  Instead of a specific knob or control to do a specific job, the world is moving towards "Soft Keys" - a group of buttons and knobs that can be assigned for a temporary job, and then reassigned to do something else later.  Games have had them for years, so have computers, but in audio, it can slow things down, as you try to figure out what a particular knob or button might be doing at a particular moment.

In the past, we had these humongous consoles, where every knob had a specific task, and yet, the learning curve was fairly simple; learn one of the rows, and you've pretty well learned all of the rows.  Not anymore, when a simple row can change, depending on how you wanna use it.  It's becoming a very popular concept with designers - it cuts down on parts and let's a computer figure it all out. Cell phones are a good example of that.

Let's imagine people start using it more in cars; four "soft" buttons and some knobs.  Press a menu button and choose Radio.  The three remaining buttons can be assigned to AM/FM, or favorites, or tone controls, while the knobs can be volume, tuning, balance, and tone.

Press the menu button and select Heat/AC, and the buttons can become fan speed choices, and the knobs temperature settings.

Press the menu button again and select Transmission - the buttons could choose the gears and the knobs can control speed, direction, braking, and turn signals.  It's very easy to do, from an engineering standpoint.

So in theory, we don't really need a steering wheel, or pedals anymore - a simple game controller with four soft keys and knobs can replace just about everything we normally reach for or do while we drive, but is that a good thing?

Think about it, cuz that's where we're headed.  Gibson announced a digital guitar, Pods duplicate guitar amps, and the inroads continue to be made, giving up control to computers of everything we do.

And that's my point; we're headed for a new age of "soft buttons" and it's the kids that grew up on Nintendo, Playstations, and XBoxes that will find this stuff easy to use, and maybe, even intuitive for them.

As for me, I prefer the touch of a wheel that is connected to the road.  And "virtual sex"?  I guess I'm old fashioned.  

Speaking of sex, a report has just come out, claiming Viagra as a possible cause of blindness.  Sounds like a load of BS to me.  I mean, if it weren't safe, the government wouldn't have allowed it on the market, would they?  

So, until the Viagra findings are more conclusive, I'll just keep takinb ert fghh ertito ddgggj ertyuy...

[Gone]

Well, I HAD to reply to this, as I had a very similar reaction when I first started using a DM24. The thing drove me nuts! Yes, it's a pretty powerful tool - considering not only the size, but the price tag. But the interface seems like it was designed using some sort of random chaos theory. To set everything up the way you want takes 10 screens in 10 random places. And, the total recall doesn't remember any of the 'global parameters'. Oh, and if you switch from 48k to 96k, it wipes ALL of the gobal settings (even when you switch back!). Unless they're updated these things in the software lately...

I also teach on a Control 24, which has a lot of 'soft control'.

What I have found is that 'soft controls' tend to be very counter-intuitive. On any analog console, after a day or two, it's pretty much automatic - you can track or mix without being distracted looking for things. With soft controls, you always need to check what 'mode' you're in, or what menu you're flipping through, and that can become a distraction from the music.

I have taught two blind students over the years, and any gear with soft controls is basically impossible for them to operate. Analog consoles, patch bays, tape machines are not.

Soft Controls - just another evil of digital audio!

[DigitMus]

I wholeheartedly agree about the DM24's interface...and whoever wrote the manual should have major surgery done by an intern using instructions he wrote! (poetic justice & all that...) I do agree with Harvey's sentiment about the direction technology is taking -  but not all devices are as counter-intuitive as the DM24. I got my introduction to digital mixers on the Mackie D8B, and while it has its share of frustrating and limiting "features", it's about 10 times more intuitive to work on for an old analog head like myself.
  I have since moved up to the next generation of Mackie's digital boards, the DXB. It's got a steeper learning curve than the D8B, but the flexibility and build quality are a vast improvement.  I tend to judge equipment on how much it "gets in my way" when I'm trying to accomplish a task, and the DM24 was just too frustrating. That is also why I use dedicated HD recorders and digital mixers instead of a DAW - I tried the DAW route, and it just got in my way too much. I would love to have a large format automated analog console and 2" multitrack tape, but for economic, as well as service/maintenence reasons, I compromised on my "dedicated digital hardware" solution.
   After cutting your teeth on the DM24, you might want to look for a used D8B or DMX R-100, either of which will seem like a dream after wrestling with the Tascam.

  Just my 2

[floodstage]

The d8b is a user friendly digital board.  

Once i got the word clock and hard disc recorder connected and set up correctly on mine, I've had amost no need for it's manual.   Too bad they didn't upgrade the d8b instead of discontinuing it and replacing it.

[acorec]

hargerst wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 09:54

We have a new 32 channel Tascam DM24 digital recording board for Studio B, and it's tiny, but extremely powerful.  Full automation, total recall of everything, motorized faders, built in compressors and effects, and all in this tiny footprint.  I can barely get it to power up for me.  It took me over a week to get it to talk to our other equipment.  And it got me to thinking about the future - and the past. The first video game was called "Pong" - a paddle on the left and right side of the screen, and a bouncing dot.  (Okay, we were easily amused.)  Today, we have Lara Croft, Final Fantasy, and dozens of high-tech, super-graphics video games, and movies like: Sin City, Star Wars, Matrix, and Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, all shot against green screens, where some of the actors are real, but none of the sets.  All that computer technology is also to found in Xbox, Playstations, and Nintendo devices - and now in audio. The biggest change is in how we learn to operate this stuff.  Instead of a specific knob or control to do a specific job, the world is moving towards "Soft Keys" - a group of buttons and knobs that can be assigned for a temporary job, and then reassigned to do something else later.  Games have had them for years, so have computers, but in audio, it can slow things down, as you try to figure out what a particular knob or button might be doing at a particular moment. In the past, we had these humongous consoles, where every knob had a specific task, and yet, the learning curve was fairly simple; learn one of the rows, and you've pretty well learned all of the rows.  Not anymore, when a simple row can change, depending on how you wanna use it.  It's becoming a very popular concept with designers - it cuts down on parts and let's a computer figure it all out. Cell phones are a good example of that. Let's imagine people start using it more in cars; four "soft" buttons and some knobs.  Press a menu button and choose Radio.  The three remaining buttons can be assigned to AM/FM, or favorites, or tone controls, while the knobs can be volume, tuning, balance, and tone. Press the menu button and select Heat/AC, and the buttons can become fan speed choices, and the knobs temperature settings. Press the menu button again and select Transmission - the buttons could choose the gears and the knobs can control speed, direction, braking, and turn signals.  It's very easy to do, from an engineering standpoint. So in theory, we don't really need a steering wheel, or pedals anymore - a simple game controller with four soft keys and knobs can replace just about everything we normally reach for or do while we drive, but is that a good thing? Think about it, cuz that's where we're headed.  Gibson announced a digital guitar, Pods duplicate guitar amps, and the inroads continue to be made, giving up control to computers of everything we do. And that's my point; we're headed for a new age of "soft buttons" and it's the kids that grew up on Nintendo, Playstations, and XBoxes that will find this stuff easy to use, and maybe, even intuitive for them. As for me, I prefer the touch of a wheel that is connected to the road.  And "virtual sex"?  I guess I'm old fashioned.   Speaking of sex, a report has just come out, claiming Viagra as a possible cause of blindness.  Sounds like a load of BS to me.  I mean, if it weren't safe, the government wouldn't have allowed it on the market, would they?   So, until the Viagra findings are more conclusive, I'll just keep takinb ert fghh ertito ddgggj ertyuy...

I have my Fostex E16 and MCI JH-24 2" analog machines I use fairly often. Since I have plenty of Analog, I decided to go digital for many other projects where people could not afford tape. I tried one of the digital stations like yours. They are great sounding and very powerful systems and the best bang-for-the buck imaginable. However. I quickly found a huge problem that, for me, is something I can't work around. The problem is that I have been working on large console all of my recording life (since the late 70s). I cannot use those all-in-one stations because the mixing sections make you switch channels (like 1-8, 8-16 etc.) and all the multi-function switches. These really affect my concentration and that affects my mixes in a negative way. I ended up with the Fostex D2424LV 24 track hard disk recorder and still use my large analog console. To me, the fostex sounds wonderful and acts exactly like a tape machine.

Sorry for the long story, but, I just can't get used to using anything but a large console and the Fostex (or any hard disk stanadlone recorder). I have tried and I just can't do it. Same thing for all those DAWs and software like Cakewalk, Pro tools, etc. Hope you don't have the same problem because I know the machine you have and it is a very good sounding machine.  

[covert]

I'm pretty much in agreement.  I like knowing when I reach for a knob, what wxactly it will do.

I don't even much like power steering.  It losses teh feel of teh road.

Virtual/cyber sex isn't.

Latest word here is about doing viagra and speed together.  "Johnny Hit And Run Pauline" anyone?

[wwittman]

There are good reasons they don't build airplanes with one 'soft' knob and a display screen.

[Fig]

I'm with you Harvey, you go!

I understand your point, but let's realize that the user interface is only half the battle.

Would you use easy to operate gear if it sounded bad?

How about good sounding gear that is hard to navigate?

These two ideas are not diametrically opposed, BTW.

hargerst wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 08:54

I can barely get it to power up for me.  It took me over a week to get it to talk to our other equipment.

I am convinced that the new gear can sense my aversion to it, too.  It can sense my loathing through the USB cable connecting to the mouse or trackball.  It misbehaves on purpose, trying to teach that "old man audio" a lesson or two.

Touchscreens, forget about it...

Quote:

And it got me to thinking about the future - and the past.

I can only hope we are doomed to repeat the past, and soon.  It seems inevitable, as hardly anyone remembers the old ways.


RE:  SOFT KEYS ->

Quote:

it can slow things down, as you try to figure out what a particular knob or button might be doing at a particular moment.

I'm guessing your Viagra habit has not affected your ability to read the "soft scribble strip"?

Reminds me of the time a digital designer was quizzing me on the "perfect digital board".  When the interview was complete the guy says something like, "you mean to tell me this thing needs over three hundred knobs on it?"

Some folks just don't get it.

Quote:

Let's imagine people start using it more in cars; <snip> It's very easy to do, from an engineering standpoint.

But like in Jurassic Park, so busy wondering if they could do it, not spending anytime wondering if they should do it.

I wonder how long it would take to adopt soft controls for automobile operation - I've already seen it in many radios and temp control systems.

With automobiles, safety is a big concern.  I wonder if the regulating officials will let a lot of that "slide" in the name of progress, as our own officials have in the sound quality industry.

Quote:

Think about it, cuz that's where we're headed.

Sounds like the body snatchers have taken you.  I'm not going that way, myself.

Quote:

it's the kids that grew up on Nintendo, Playstations, and XBoxes that will find this stuff easy to use, and maybe, even intuitive for them.

This is frightening to me.  Making a record is not like capturing the enemy's flag!

Quote:

... if it weren't safe, the government wouldn't have allowed it on the market, would they?

And if it didn't sound like a Neve, they wouldn't have put their name on it, right?  And if the amp sim says "Marshall", well, that's what its gonna sound like, right?  Humbug.

If the kids never heard a Marshall, or Neve or what have you, they'll never know the difference - and that is what is truly devastating.

Excellent rant, sir.

Warm analog regards,

Fig

[Dale Ulan]

I have a Tascam DM24, and although it didn't take that long to get everything to interface to everything else, by and large I am looking for something different. Yes, I'm shopping for an analog board. Don't know what to get yet, though.

Although I find the Tascam useable (much more useable than I find Protools, by the way), the page flipping drives me nuts. The other thing is that in my studio, if you move more than one fader at once, sometimes the touch sensors don't recognize all of the faders that I just moved, so if I'm doing a manual mix with a bunch of fader moves (I don't want to bother with automation every time), sometimes it scraps the mix because it didn't believe that one of the faders should move. Drives me nuts. The old user interface with one knob for each function and one function per knob is very intuitive.

[Invisible Member]

I'm stuck in the 80's.

I am the Napoleon Dynamite of Project Studios.

But I do have an X-Box with a Steering Wheel, Brake and gas pedal to use with Burnout 3.


Sweeet!


Peace,
Dennis

[Brian Roth]

Ergononics is one reason I immediately liked the RADAR digicorder.    I had never used one, and was thrust into the "maiden voyage" of Ted Curtis' studio awhile back:

http://www.brianroth.com/projects/curtis/curtis2.html

The RADAR's user interface was incredibly logical to an Olde Analog Guy...just another multitrack control box!  Ready/safe and play/rewind etc etc are there on dedicated switches.

During a horn overdub, we found that the sax player's baritone couldn't hit the low "braaap" note at the end of the chart, so I thought "hmmmm...well, just varispeed the deck up in speed", and then "hmmmm....wonder how to varispeed this RADAR?"  It took me maybe less than a minute of looking at the control panel until I found that useful function...easily available, no menu scrolling!

Bri

[Albert]

I've had a DM-24 for a few years now, and while there certainly was a learning curve at the beginning, I'm finding the board intuitive and easy to get around on now. It did take a while to sort the routing out, and to get used to where to find things. I'm sure that with some more practice your fingers will being doing a little dance across the controls and things will go very quickly.

The one process on the board that just doesn't get faster is naming saved patches. A keypad or an input for an external PC style keyboard would have made that a lot easier.

[mbruce333]

I too have had a DM24 for about three years, I moved to it from a Yamaha 01V.  I also work in a studio with a Mackie D8B, and have used a DMXR100 quite a bit as well.  Each had their quirks and things that are unique and sometimes dumb, but none were really that tough to learn.  It just takes some repitition, a big bunch of patients helps, too!  I do with the manual for the DM was better, ugh......make that ANY better.  

Just my two cents.....
MB

Ps.
Nick Eipers, you CAN pick which "global parameters" you want to leave unchanged when you open new snapshots, it's in the "Snapshot Recall Safe" of the "Library" page, BTW.

[wireline]

I have and used a d8b for several years...liked most of it, loved some of it, hated some of it...but then one day I woke up, disconnected the damn thing, and swapped it out for some harcore hardware...now I have no mixing board (all ITB) but have much better sounds to work with...and therein, amigos, is the ultimate paradox.

As I rapidly evolve into the bitter old curmegeon status, I often find myself getting annoyed, if not angry, with manufacturers for making/marketing everything under the sun EXCEPT FOR WHAT I WANT!  Its like going to Home Depot and seeing everything under the sun, none of which fits the need.

My Dad (a highly decorated WWII vet, successful banker, and the man I consider my all time hero) has repeatedly told me, "Anything that tries to be superior at more than one or two things invariably will fail at them all..."  And I am starting to really believe this.

What's the point of having lower quality versions of EVERYTHING available at the push on a button?  Again, the Home Depot version of audio.  Lots of things, but to get the higher quality, you have to special order (in the audio world, route to something else) and THAT is a whole new set of issues.

I thing the concept of having a LOT of GREAT stuff available at the push of a few buttons is wonderful...but the implementation thereof is I think pretty sad.

All that said, I have no right to even express an opinion - except for a few killer pres and some good mics, I am a lowend guy...looking for a way to somehow meld the quality of API/OSA/Neve-ish pres, UAD compressions, flexible routing, etc...in one mixer that does not cost more than my house and my vehicles combined...

Maybe this explains why every is getting so jacked up the new Aurora, Tonelux, etc summing mixers...

[/curmugeon mode]

[James Duncan]

I got a Behringer DDX3216 for live use with my son's band, and I thought this thing was going to be the answer to all my live rig issues...

Completely parametric EQ w/ variable frequencies/Q/boost/attenuation...compression on every channel, 4 effects, built-in gates, etc., etc., etc.

Two problems as I see it:

1) A pain in the ass to use. You have to go scrolling through 20 screens to get where you want to be. I don't find it *difficult* or non-intuitive, just a pain. When I need to hit an EQ for a vocal, I want to reach down and grab a knob for that channel, not:

a) select the channel
b) hit the "EQ" button (if I can find it easily in the array of buttons!)
c) hit the band select button 4 times to scroll to the high band
d) look at the labels on the soft buttons to fine the frequency button
e) make the adjustment
f) now hit the band select button a few more time again to get the high-mids
g) repeat as necessary

Sheesh! I just wanted to tweak the high EQ a bit!

2) Reliability. Part of the issue is the "Behringer" moniker, but also the fact that it is a digital mixer. As has been mentioned, if a channel dies on the analog board, you just don't use that channel, but if something dies on the digital board, chances are good that the whole board is down.

Digital mixers are certainly powerful, and provide all kinds of features that their analog counterparts could not possibly include for the same price point, but it is certainly a trade-off between features and ergonomics/reliability.

I don't know if it is as much of an issue in the studio as it is in a live situation where you need to react instantly to  feedback and the like, but all-in-all, I am an old fart, and prefer to reach out and grab a knob.