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Author Topic: "Needle Drop Pricing"  (Read 5577 times)

Keyplayer

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"Needle Drop Pricing"
« on: May 24, 2005, 09:49:26 AM »

I'm starting to develop a large catalog of backgound music that was originally composed for radio spots, sports events, dance companies, industrial films, etc. As I own the copyrights to all of this material, I've been thinking about re-issuing some of these pieces for library use.

My problem is determining a price. All of my work has been budget based commissions. So I have NO IDEA what the going rates are. I have a general idea about blanket rates. But no idea of the per song/per market pricing. I've checked dozens of Music Library sites. But almost nobody has a rate card. The ones who did only gave blanket quotes. You have to request an individual quote for a specific project. So, can anybody out there give me some idea of what the general market is now for "needle drop", single use material?

I am also interested in the rates for Pop Songs being re-used in their original form or with new lyrics for commercial (like the Old Navy Spots running now using Rick James "Super Freak" to sell "Super Skirts" or Itsy Bitsy Bikini to sell Yogart.). ABSOLUTELY ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!
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compasspnt

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2005, 10:09:31 AM »

A "Needle Drop" price should be determined in each instance depending upon the use.  In what markets would it play?  What is the total time?  TV, radio, motion picture, company promo.....?  Indie film, Major release?  Documentary?  Children's?  Charity?  All could be different and negotiable rates.

As for reuse of previously released songs, that is negotiated in each instance between the author/pub co. and the end user, again for their specific purpose.  It could be any price they agree upon, and could include provisions such as escalation in the 2nd year, 3rd year, etc.

Whatever Works.  Good luck!
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Keyplayer

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2005, 10:23:47 AM »

Can you give me a ball park of what is typical?

Let's say it's a :30 spot for a dry cleaners in a small market in Ohio. The song runs 20 seconds of the spot and it's going to run 10 times (Once for AM Drive Once for PM Drive) Mon - Fri.. What's a reasonable charge (not the cheapest not the most expensive - I'm looking for dead center pricing)?

Scenario No. 2: Background music for a :60 spot on BMW running Prime Time nightly (all 7 days) for 4 weeks in Manhattan?

Scenario No. 3: Background music for a March of Dimes PSA Trailer running in  a theater showing "Star Wars Episode 3."

Scenario 3B: Same as No. 3 but running at a indie film fest for 2 weeks in Baltimore.

Scenario No. 4: McDonald's "I'm lovin' It" spots. One Jingle run over numerous campaigns featuring commercial actors and major celebs. How' the pricing for that structured  Vrs. a Jingle ID for a specific product like Empire Carpet which never changes over 20 - 30 years?

Give me a clue?
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Keyplayer

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2005, 07:08:42 PM »

Anybody?
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Brian Roth

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 12:25:39 AM »

I used to work on the "tech side" for an ad agency that also owned a studio.  I built their facilities, fixed broken stuff, etc, but I never got involved with the needle drops, SAG, AFTRA, etc.

I linked your questions to my friend who now runs the joint to see if he has any comments (and time to respond!).

Bri

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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2005, 02:18:42 PM »

I think Terry summed it up nicely, but I'll try to give you as much info as I can (or am allowed to) since i work for a very large library company that does specifically what you are trying to do...

The reason you haven't been able to get any information is because it varies greatly and is negotiable.  Most places that only use needle drop licensing always haggle over price.

The range will vary anywhere from $100~$1000 or $2000 at the most.  Now this is for "Non-Featured" library/catalog music.

Quote:


Let's say it's a :30 spot for a dry cleaners in a small market in Ohio. The song runs 20 seconds of the spot and it's going to run 10 times (Once for AM Drive Once for PM Drive) Mon - Fri.. What's a reasonable charge (not the cheapest not the most expensive - I'm looking for dead center pricing)?



How many times it will air usually doesn't come into play in determining how much the licensing fee will be, since the library company will also make publishing royalties.  If someone does try to factor that in it usually hurts you.  The more it airs, the less the licensing fee (since you'll make more from royalties off it airing).  Try to stay away from going down that pitfall if at all possible.  Any experienced music supervisor or producer will probably eat you for lunch if you start down that road.  Usually the licensing fee is based on area (local, regional, national, international) and what channel/station it is on.  (i.e. NBC has a lot more viewers than the discovery times channel.)  It's all about how many viewers, not how many spins/airings.  

I know we have different rate cards for different industries and for different types of use within those industries as well.  There is just so many it's hard to even start somewhere...

We have rates for DVD menus and video games and it's based on how many units are expected to ship...and then if they sell more they have to re-license the music.

We have rates for websites that are streaming background music based on how many hits they average every month.

With Radio stations we've been doing barter more than licensing.

Like I said it's really hard to even give you a quote for some of your specific examples because for one BMW commercial you might get $200, another you might get $1500.  It is really just what the client's budget can afford, where the commercial will air, how they plan on using your music, and your negotiating skills.

Sometimes the licensing fees are for the life of the commercial.  Other times it's licensed for a set amount of time.  The normal life of one national TV commercial is 13 weeks.  I believe (but could be wrong) you buy ad time on the stations/channels in 13 week chunks and this is why commercials usually airs for 13 weeks at a time.  So, you can say $300 for the first 13 weeks and then they have to renew with you if they decide to air the commercial for another 13 weeks.  Or you might charge a flat fee for the life of the commercial.  $500 will let the local cleaner's use your music in their local TV spot for the next 20 years.

Also, the way in which the song gets used dictates how much you can charge, and also how much you get paid from ASCAP and BMI.  A non-featured use is probably the lowest.  There is constant dialog and the music is mixed very low in the background.  If it's used as a jingle instead of non-featured, the music is louder and carries the commercial (think of a 60's lounge style song for a laundry detergent commercial or a dramatic orchestral cue for a video game commercial).  You then have featured uses, which are usually more for artist-driven material but can occasionally happen for a library.  This is where your track is featured, mixed upfront with no dialog over it.  I think it has to last at least 10 seconds to be considered "featured" but I could be wrong.  Check with ASCAP/BMI about that.  Anyway,  all these things change the price, but everything is negotiable.  You might get one ad agency that tries to license a cue as a jingle use for $200 in a national ad campaign and says "well, we don't have a big budget, but you'll make tens of thousands from the performance royalties!" ...

It's all negotiable.  Everything.  All of it.  Every penny. Every angle.  Negotiable. Period.

Now one other thing you mentioned, redoing pop songs for commercials.  That's a totally different ball game and if you are trying to promote yourself as a library it will be hard for you to get that kind of work.  Jingle houses usually get that work.  And like Terry said, the publisher of the original track has to approve the use and get paid, then you would charge a nominal fee for the re-recording of that song.  Unfortunately there really isn't a ton of money in doing this kind of thing, unless you were the original composer of the hit song! HAHA!

One other suggestion I can offer...Join PMA (Production Music Assoc.).  the website is www.pmamusic.com.  They can answer a lot of these questions for you and regularly have seminars and workshops about these topics (and much more).

Good luck!

-Derek



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Derek Jones
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Keyplayer

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2005, 09:21:39 PM »

Hey thanks Guys! I really appreciate your help, although I am finding the information, so far, is making this task seem increasingly daunting. Maybe I should just try to find representation.

Are any of you using agents or managers to acquire your gigs? With budgets sooooo low, I don't know how anyone could afford one. What would there be to split?

Anyway, if anybody else has any suggestions or information to add, feel free to chime in. Obviously, I can use all the help I can get on this one.
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fnirvana

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2005, 10:12:13 AM »

Key,

I have been contacted recently by a company called "The American Music Co." to use their library music. Never use the stuff, but I checked out their website and some of the literature they insisted on sending.

ALL info you request was in their literature... and is probably on their website. If it's not on their website, call 'em up and request their demo pack. Everything you seek is listed their. Prices for this... prices for that... buy outs, definitions... All.

Re: starting a library company

Much depends on having advertising about your library and reaching the people who buy that stuff. The sound of music in libraries goes stale for me quicker than a loaf of day old bread... It's tuff to compete with the army of folks out there with hundreds of writers, long-term clients and full-time sales staff.

A suggestion, if I may. You might join the writer staff of a big library company and learn what you can... THEN, do you thing later. Most of these companies buy tracks from writers, who can negotiate for a variety of compensation plans.

Check out the Film Music World website and listserve group. Many answers there to the general thrust of your questions.

Re: finding representation

Many people find it is difficult to get representation until the moment when it is unnecessary. YMMV

Best of luck!
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Keyplayer

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2005, 01:18:19 PM »

fnirvana wrote on Sat, 28 May 2005 10:12

Key,

I have been contacted recently by a company called "The American Music Co." to use their library music. Never use the stuff, but I checked out their website and some of the literature they insisted on sending.

ALL info you request was in their literature... and is probably on their website. If it's not on their website, call 'em up and request their demo pack. Everything you seek is listed their. Prices for this... prices for that... buy outs, definitions... All.



Keyplayer: Thanks a lot. You were right all of the information was listed right on their site. This is a huge help.



fnirvana wrote on Sat, 28 May 2005 10:12


Re: starting a library company

Much depends on having advertising about your library and reaching the people who buy that stuff. The sound of music in libraries goes stale for me quicker than a loaf of day old bread... It's tuff to compete with the army of folks out there with hundreds of writers, long-term clients and full-time sales staff.

A suggestion, if I may. You might join the writer staff of a big library company and learn what you can... THEN, do you thing later. Most of these companies buy tracks from writers, who can negotiate for a variety of compensation plans.

Check out the Film Music World website and listserve group. Many answers there to the general thrust of your questions.




Keyplayer: This fact is not lost on me. I've been fighting some version of this battle for years. I meet program directors all the time who've said that they liked my stuff and wanted to use it for one thing or another. But when the account exec from the big Jingle House came around to place the order, they through a fit because the order was short by ONE SONG or prom package! Then they'd threaten to pull all of their product if the PD didn't make the full order. Another typical scenario was giving the PD or staff free trips or tickets to something to keep people like me from evn getting a shot at bidding on anything.

I have no problem with subcontracting to a library. A client is a client. So far, I've been reluctant to pursue that course until I had a baseline for determining the value of any contract that might be offered. That's another reason why I've been trying to gather this information.


fnirvana wrote on Sat, 28 May 2005 10:12



Re: finding representation

Many people find it is difficult to get representation until the moment when it is unnecessary. YMMV

Best of luck!


Keyplayer: Yeah, I'm with you on that. Case in point: Film Music Network has a program for their members where IF YOU LAND A GIG, they'll hook you up with an agent to negotiate the deal. But they'll only negotiate that one deal. So you're back to pounding the pavement for the next job, at which point, they'll be happy to help you with this one as well.

If this were like pledging for a fraternity, wherein you find 5 gigs BEFORE they'll represent you, that MIGHT make some sense.
1) You've proven some consistancy in you marketablity
2) You ultimately end up with some supposedly decent representation.

But even under those circumstance, I can't begin to figure out how this would work logistically.

YOU find the gig. The client asks YOU "How much?" So YOU have to tell them your Agent will handle those details. "Fine, who's YOUR Agent?" the client will ask.

What do you do then, Say "I don't know but the FMN will assign somebody to this project as soon as I can contact them?" That's the end of that gig, right there! But let's assume by the grace of God that you can actually keep that fragile deal intact until the FMN Agent locks it in. You still don't get to claim him/her as your agent on the next gig YOU FIND, let alone have them act like an agent and find the next gig for you? I don't get it.

I just thought if you had a decent demo to show potential clients, you could just as easily show it to a potential agent to see if they might take you on and find you the gigs. Sigh, this is some business we're in, huh?





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fnirvana

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2005, 04:45:02 PM »


[/quote] Sigh, this is some business we're in, huh? [/quote]

Ah, NOW we're getting to the essence.



Found Nirvana Recorders
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 05:31:14 PM »

Honestly, if you land a gig, why do you need an agent to negotiate it???  to me, it's the agent's job to get the gig for you in the first place.

Library music is a tough nut to crack.  But things like M-Soft and other search utilities are leveling the playing field.  Any new libraries starting out should look into these options as a way to get an initial cash flow.

All of the search engines for Library have their problems...but the big companies use them...and it's very unbiased.  The Preditor (Producer and Editor in one) has a day to make a new promo.  He/she just searches through the database of the search engine for keywords, for example (americana, banjo, campfire, folk, harmonica).  Bam!  all these cues come up that fit those key words.  Sales people for libraries have been having a tougher time getting usages because of this.

Anyway...you should look into it.  Three off the top of my head are Freshground, M-Soft and SoundMiner.  
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Derek Jones
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 05:40:57 PM »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 03 June 2005 14:31

Honestly, if you land a gig, why do you need an agent to negotiate it???  to me, it's the agent's job to get the gig for you in the first place.

Library music is a tough nut to crack.  But things like M-Soft and other search utilities are leveling the playing field.  Any new libraries starting out should look into these options as a way to get an initial cash flow.

All of the search engines for Library have their problems...but the big companies use them...and it's very unbiased.  The Preditor (Producer and Editor in one) has a day to make a new promo.  He/she just searches through the database of the search engine for keywords, for example (americana, banjo, campfire, folk, harmonica).  Bam!  all these cues come up that fit those key words.  Sales people for libraries have been having a tougher time getting usages because of this.

Anyway...you should look into it.  Three off the top of my head are Freshground, M-Soft and SoundMiner.  


Actually, I should clarify...the search engines contain music from multiple companies, not just one music library.

So when you do your search for americana/banjo, it will search through all of Killer Tracks, Megatrax, APM, Intervox, Extreme Music, etc...

Each search engine has a different way it does things.  For example, when you sign up with M-soft as a client, you automatically purchase a blanket license for all the music libraries M-soft has worked out distribution deals with.

SoundMiner works differently.  SoundMiner encodes all the libraries and gives it back to the library company.  When a client purchases a blanket license from the library company, they get the sound miner encoded files.  If they purchase sound miner they can search through all the sound miner encoded libraries that they have purchased.

Anyway...I hope that helps clears things up a little bit.
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Derek Jones
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fnirvana

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2005, 08:28:48 AM »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 03 June 2005 22:31

 to me, it's the agent's job to get the gig for you in the first place.


One would think that this should be the case... but (with respect) this is wrongthink.

What gets composers new work is two things usually:

(1) One's relationship to a project's decisionmakers...
(2) One's previous work...

An agent's job is to hammer out the best possible deal for the composer. But this step usually occurs AFTER the initial composer decision has been made.

It's a relationship business baby! So, treat those clients and old industry pals as good as you can.



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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: "Needle Drop Pricing"
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2005, 11:31:46 AM »

fnirvana wrote on Sun, 05 June 2005 05:28

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Fri, 03 June 2005 22:31

 to me, it's the agent's job to get the gig for you in the first place.


One would think that this should be the case... but (with respect) this is wrongthink.

What gets composers new work is two things usually:

(1) One's relationship to a project's decisionmakers...
(2) One's previous work...

An agent's job is to hammer out the best possible deal for the composer. But this step usually occurs AFTER the initial composer decision has been made.

It's a relationship business baby! So, treat those clients and old industry pals as good as you can.






Yeah, I know that's usually how it works...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it! Wink


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Derek Jones
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"I always say I can teach anyone HOW to get a great snare sound, I just can't teach WHAT a great snare sound is.” -Dave Pensado
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