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Author Topic: 1/4" mixdown deck  (Read 8030 times)

Max.

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1/4" mixdown deck
« on: May 10, 2005, 04:13:26 AM »

Hey guys,
I'm new here and I'd like to pick on your beautiful brains a bit.
I'm planning to buy a basic but decent sounding 1/4" mixdown recorder. I record on a Tascam MS16 1" at the moment and I'm tired of mixing to DAT.
It's not a professional studio, I'm a bit poor at the moment and 15ips is alright with me.
I was looking at Studer 807s, Revox PR99s and Telefunken M15As.
I'm in Germany, so spare parts are available for all machines mentioned above. I think I'm most curious about the Telefunken decks.
Any ideas, tips or recomendations?
Thanks for your time,
Max
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JGreenslade

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2005, 06:28:52 AM »

We had a brief chat regarding M15s during Oliver Archut's guest spot a few weeks back:   http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/3609/998/?SQ=9f 1e8fcdce3cf1b3d382b95494fdba55

Although they are expensive as a rule, I know one or two people that have picked up Studer C-37s for peanuts - if you find them at the right place, as opposed to a "pro audio" franchise...

Tim de Paravincini can improve the C-37 s/n ratio from 75dB to 90dB, and I'm told he can attain similar results on TFK decks.

If you've got the dough, you can always give T d P a call, I have a feeling you wouldn't be disappointed :-)

Justin
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Oliver Archut

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2005, 08:54:35 AM »

Hello Max,

you might want to contact the ARD radio stations, they always have the old Telefunken machines up for sale. You have to be able to pick them up yourself and need a pretty good tech to get/keep them running.
I checked out this morning the WDR radiostation surplus sales http://www.wdr.de/unternehmen/t-boerse/audio.jhtml;jsessionid=5GEGWPO5JM4EUCQKYXEUTIQ
and they have a few M15 and similar for Euro 500, please make sure that you allow at least Euro 500 to 1k for repair and other possible issues before you have the machine running, but if you get them running they kick ass....
If you are looking for spare parts and technical advise

http://www.hilpert-audio.de/audio/index.php

Hope that helps,

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Oliver Archut
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Max.

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2005, 09:33:25 AM »

Hello Oliver,
thanks for the link. I've heard that the WDR sells some of their machines. I haven't seen M 21s so far, so I didn't ask about them.
Is the M 21 a better machine, or is it just a couple of years younger?
I've seen M15As on ebay in Germany go for less than EUR 300 and so I assumed they were inferior to Studers.
I know a good tech who always took care of the machines of the studio I used to work for.
I think I should give the WDR in K
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Oliver Archut

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2005, 09:58:56 AM »

Hello Max,

a perfect working M15 is as good or some people even say it is better than Studer.
Biggest problems is that AEG/Telefunken does not exist anymore, there are still some replacement parts around but there is a limited supply, this reflects in the resale price... Also not to many people left that can work on those babies...

Best

Oliver

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Oliver Archut
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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2005, 04:40:35 PM »

BTW, 1/4" 15ips isn't for the poor ..it's the preferred choice for some who can mix on anything they want.
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2005, 04:41:55 PM »

vernier wrote on Tue, 10 May 2005 14:40

BTW, 1/4" 15ips isn't for the poor ..it's the preferred choice for some who can mix on anything they want.



Yes, I agree, dont forget Beatles, Beach Boys, Hendrix, Stones, Who, Sinatra, etc. was all 1/4" 15 ips. I've handled some of these original masters and they SLAMMED IT BOY! I've seen +6 and more come off that old Scotch (211 ?). I worked with Eddie Kramer (Hendrix, Led Zep, Kiss)  recently and he STILL mixes to 15 ips but has moved up to half inch, Dolby SR. Protools is here to stay but pick up your analog mixdown deck now boys while they're cheap, the word is gettin out. And 1/4"  tape seems fairly available, for the time being, at least here in LA.

drumsound

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2005, 09:19:55 PM »

"I record at 15ips because 30ips is for wimps!"

--Eddie Kramer at a conference in Kentucky
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Max.

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2005, 11:27:23 AM »

Thanks for your replies.
I just bought a TFK M15A on ebay and I'm terribly curious to see what condition it's really in.
Tara, Max
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breathe

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 02:34:30 AM »

Is that true, even for the stereo Beatles?  My consistent experience with 1/4" stereo is that it makes the sound from the board more narrow/collapsed, and that's on a perfectly alligned Studer.  It can have a pretty sound, sort of soft and polite, but the stereo width isn't there.  In my one experience with 1/2" 30ips, I felt (running 456) that the sound off tape was almost identical to what came out of the board, especially in the width of the image.  Also, back in the day was US always NAB or Ampex EQ, and Europe always IEC?

Nicholas



bigaudioblowhard wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 13:41

Yes, I agree, dont forget Beatles, Beach Boys, Hendrix, Stones, Who, Sinatra, etc. was all 1/4" 15 ips. I've handled some of these original masters and they SLAMMED IT BOY! I've seen +6 and more come off that old Scotch (211 ?).

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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2005, 03:44:10 AM »

Quarter-inch 15ips gels better, lows are thick, the mix blends nicely ..crank up early Creedence Clearwater, or Sinatra from 1953, or Beatles Revolver (theres a ton of good examples).. the best from the 50's and 60's blows away most everything that followed. Was mostly great tube gear too.
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2005, 12:38:13 PM »


breathe wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 00:34

Is that true, even for the stereo Beatles?


bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2005, 01:02:52 PM »

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Mon, 23 May 2005 10:38


breathe wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 00:34

Is that true, even for the stereo Beatles?






Sorry about the previous post, hit the wrong button.

Yes,  I just got off the phone with my "contact" at Capitol Records  who has access

to the archive data. He claims ALL BEATLES STEREO OR MONO mix reels

are Quarter Inch15 ips. I cant think any artist of the era  who mixed to Half Inch. I

also believe that multitracks of the era were also 15 ips. I'm pretty sure McCartney's

solo album RAM ('72?) was mixed to half inch. There is one rocker  "Smile Away"

with a huge fuzz bass, that sounds awesome on the flat master, but they rolled it off

for the vinyl. I dont recall hearing a CD of that track. Apparently theres a DCC

version of the album, anybody heard that?

mumbles

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2005, 02:39:47 PM »

What about the Revox G36?

Seamus
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WhyKooper

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2005, 04:04:34 PM »

........"I just got off the phone with my "contact" at Capitol Records who has access to the archive data. He claims ALL BEATLES STEREO OR MONO mix reels are Quarter Inch15 ips. I cant think any artist of the era who mixed to Half Inch...."

This is a little off topic, but I have a request.  

Will you get back on the phone with your Capitol contact and ask him/her what's the big deal with the Beatle Anthology dvd surround mixes mostly NOT BEING COMPLETE SONGS!.  Ask him/her to call Abbey Road and ask them what the hell were they thinking.

The new mixes are astounding imo.  But nowhere on the collection are the full song remixes offered.  Now I know they didn't just remix snips of the songs.  This has been irking me for a few years now.  All that stuff is now sitting in ProTools somewhere and no one gets to hear it.

And of course when it comes to the Bee-atles, there is usually nowhere on planet earth where you can ask an actual insider human being what's going on.
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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2005, 11:37:03 PM »

I think everything was mixed to quarter-Inch @ 15 ips until early 70's.
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2005, 02:36:05 PM »

WhyKooper wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 14:04

...

Will you get back on the phone with your Capitol contact and ask him/her what's the big deal with the Beatle Anthology dvd surround mixes mostly NOT BEING COMPLETE SONGS!.  Ask him/her to call Abbey Road and ask them what the hell were they thinking.



Hi WK, sorry to take so long to reply, but I was away for a bit.

Okay, will do . bab.

bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2005, 02:01:08 PM »

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Sat, 28 May 2005 12:36

WhyKooper wrote on Thu, 26 May 2005 14:04

...

Will you get back on the phone with your Capitol contact and ask him/her what's the big deal with the Beatle Anthology dvd surround mixes mostly NOT BEING COMPLETE SONGS!.  Ask him/her to call Abbey Road and ask them what the hell were they thinking.



Hi WK, sorry to take so long to reply, but I was away for a bit.

Okay, will do . bab.



Hi WK, checked back with my guy and all I got was a big DUNNO!

People waaaay above our low stations make these decisions and
are unavailable for comment.

Apparently there's so much stuff that it'll take forever to release it. Good news for future sales. I havent seen it but he claimed "Strawberry Fields" & "Penny Lane" are complete takes as well as some of the Washington DC show.

Sincerly bab.

Nathan Eldred

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2005, 05:34:06 PM »

breathe wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 02:34

Is that true, even for the stereo Beatles?  My consistent experience with 1/4" stereo is that it makes the sound from the board more narrow/collapsed



FWIW, IME I've found that our 1/4" @ 15 IPS makes it quite a bit subjectively larger than what's coming off the console bus direct.  I love flipping between the two at matched volumes for clients, even the skeptical end up buying the tape (oh and that's on my Ampex ATR-800 which is full of chips, and sounds frikking incredible)!
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2005, 10:49:15 PM »

breathe wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 01:34

Is that true, even for the stereo Beatles?  My consistent experience with 1/4" stereo is that it makes the sound from the board more narrow/collapsed, and that's on a perfectly alligned Studer.


Sounds like some stock Studers which had wimpy power supplies.

With the exception of one guy in New York, 1/2" two track didn't exist before the mid 1970s. RCA asked people to use 30 ips in the very late '60s but it didn't become very common until the '70s. The first machines I ever saw used at 30 were 3M M-56s in 1972 and this was an RCA project. After 24 track came it a lot of people moved up to 30 especially if they didn't like Dolbys. Virtually every record made before 1975 was mixed to 1/4" and virtually every record made before the early '70s was recorded and mixed at 15.

ted nightshade

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2005, 09:10:16 AM »

Didn't the Beatles track to some mammoth 4 track format? Maybe even 1"?
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WhyKooper

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2005, 09:47:48 AM »

Yeah 4 track on 1".  Martin talks about it in the All You Need Is Ears book.  Says he was here at Capitol in 1958 and Voyle Gilmore invited him to sit in on a Sinatra session for the "Come Fly With Me" album and Capitol was using half inch 3 track.  Martin tried to talk EMI into investing in those but they wouldn't.  Finally talked them into having custom 4-track 1" machines made in late 1963.  

EMI bought two machines to start with and Martin immediately ran out of tracks.. so would fill 4 tracks, submix to one track of 2nd machine, add 3 tracks, submix back to 1 track further up the reel on machine 1 etc.  And then they kept all those reels for all the decades till dumping the gazillions of tracks into Protools in 2000 or whenever it was....for those great surround mixes that none of us get to hear.
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2005, 01:27:07 PM »

WhyKooper wrote on Wed, 01 June 2005 08:47

... Martin tried to talk EMI into investing in those but they wouldn't.  Finally talked them into having custom 4-track 1" machines made in late 1963.
That conflicts with what I was told by the EMI staff around 1967 who said they had old 3 track Ampex machines. Most of Europe went to the Studer 1" 4 tracks at the same time most of us in the US went to 1/2" 4 track. I never got the impression the Studers were custom or even that EMI was first to use them. (The staff held that EMI was always LAST with everything!) Maybe he was speaking of sync capability which was not common with 3 tracks.

They did say that they were working "4 to 4 to 4 to 4 to 4 to 4 to 4..." This is all really an extension of mono to mono, 2 to 2 and 3 to 3 which had been pretty common earlier.

I've got to pick up the George Martin book.

WhyKooper

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2005, 01:56:28 PM »

Heck I don't know.  I'm just quoting from the Martin book after I looked at it this morning.

Martin goes into this thing, saying that when he (or whoever) talked EMI into new machines, EMI was going to go 3-track but Martin (or he and others) pushed for 4 track because they thought they should get the max track count available on a 1" machine at the time..which was 4.  And technicians were warning him that 4 tracks on 1" tape was pushing the technology too far.   He doesn't mention brands, but looking at the section again, he also doesn't say "custom".

Martin goes on to say the 4 tracks didn't ultimately matter because when they got the first machines, they ran out of tracks anyway....hence, the idea to bounce between the two 4 tracks cuz that's what he'd been doing with mono machines anyway all the way back to when he engineered stuff in the late 50's.
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gevermil

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2005, 10:06:56 PM »

mr olson . what is your prefered tape deck?
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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2005, 10:53:12 PM »

I wore out three copies of "Ears". Also, David Manely's VTL ..its coming apart. Anyway, one-inch four-tracks are explained in "Ears" (along with why tube-mics, valve-desks, and fewer tracks are superior). Both books, great reads!
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2005, 02:58:54 PM »

gevermil wrote on Wed, 01 June 2005 21:06

mr olson . what is your prefered tape deck?
The best I've ever heard are Studers with very custom electronics and Stephens multitracks.

vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2005, 11:06:42 PM »

I want a 351 ..thats what I want.
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Brian Roth

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2005, 12:07:04 AM »

vernier wrote on Sat, 04 June 2005 22:06

I want a 351 ..thats what I want.


350's don't suck, either <g>.  And, no printed circuit boards that get charred.

Bri

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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2005, 12:48:58 AM »

Printed circuit boards? ..forget that. I'll take the 350.
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Brian Roth

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2005, 03:13:10 AM »

OK, then stock up on octal tubes for the 350 <g>.

Bri

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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2005, 08:13:00 PM »

Tubes? ..no problem, they outlast computers.
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Harpo

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2005, 11:25:22 PM »

Tubes outlast computers by at least fifty years, no contest. I still have and fire up occasionally my Brush Soundmirror that my father bought new in 1951. It has never been serviced and has only a very slight hum. Most of the new affordable gear today is junk.  Paul.
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vernier

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2005, 02:38:43 AM »

Brush Soundmirror ..that going way back, probably older than my Ampro.
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bigaudioblowhard

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Re: 1/4" mixdown deck
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2005, 12:17:40 PM »

Harpo wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 21:25

Tubes outlast computers by at least fifty years, no contest. I still have and fire up occasionally my Brush Soundmirror that my father bought new in 1951. It has never been serviced and has only a very slight hum. Most of the new affordable gear today is junk.  Paul.



Hi Paul, I would get that thing recapped ASAP. I'm not sure but I think  your tubes will  last even  longer, and sound better  too, with  more punch and clarity.  I've got an  old HH Scott with PP 7591's from 1963 and my spare set is just sitting around waiting...waiting...waiting for the original  tubes  to go.
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