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Author Topic: IC's kill music  (Read 94580 times)

vernier

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2005, 06:30:32 pm »

I never knew anyone that liked SSL.

Hey we need shirts and hats .."IC's Killed The Music!" ..HEE!
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jfrigo

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2005, 11:01:12 pm »

vernier wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 15:30

I never knew anyone that liked SSL.


Funny that it's the most popular console out there. Go figure. Somebody must like the damned things!

For me, as long as it's a G+ or later, and there's some good outboard to go along with it, it'll work; no gnashing of teeth necessary.
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zmix

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2005, 12:43:48 am »

I love the SSL. E series or G+ with E series EQ only, please!
Fantastic EQ, automation, machine control, and I love the quad compressor.

There are two major skills involved in mixing: Listening and Problem Solving. The first will not allow the process to get out of hand, and the sound to suffer, and the second will facilitate new and exciting solutions to the ever evolving musical questions raised during a mix. I find the SSL to be the most flexible and intelligent console I have ever used. If you run into trouble on an SSL, you are ignoring one of the above mentioned skills....

Nothing smacks into a tree faster than a Ferrari...

JDSStudios

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2005, 02:43:09 am »

zmix wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 05:43

I love

Nothing smacks into a tree faster than a Ferrari...


Lightning.
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John Ferreira
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zmix

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2005, 08:54:00 am »

My point was simply this: Don't blame the Ferrari...

David Schober

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2005, 09:19:07 am »

I'm not saying the SSL isn't popular.  I'm just saying it's certainly not the best sounding console out there.  The newer ones, the J series do sound much, much better.  But the earlier ones, and even the best of them, the G+/Ultimation are so full of electronics...well that's what they sound like.  I've used them plenty and even gotten a some decent mixes on them.  But if the goal was to work on a good sounding console it wouldn't be a first choice.  Personally though I think their computer is the worst I've ever worked on...from the first ones to today's)

IMO, the SSL really started us down this path of squashing the crap out of a mix.  Until it arrived with a compressor on every channel and a master compressor, few mixes were over compressed.  I do give kudos to Mr. Clearmountain.  He's great.  But for a while there, in the first few years of SSL being the defacto console of pop/rock mixing, there was a ton or absolutely horrible mixes.  People couldn't resist the gadgets.  Some guys would gate and compress every channel.  At least as I see it, the ability to have so many compressors so easily accessible made it hard for mixers to resist.  Things got louder, harder and less musical by the misuse of this console.

I'm not blaming the SSL design team.  They made a very flexible console that sounded mediocre, but was immensely successful.  But, the technology did help pop music sound worse, not better.  Just listen to music before SSL.  Much more open, much more musical.  Now again, I'm not blaming SSL for everything.  There were many factors that were a part of why that happened.  I'm just saying it was a major factor and had SSL not existed (and assuming no one else would have made a console like that)  the sound of pop music in the 80s would have been much different.
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David Schober

zmix

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2005, 09:29:13 am »

... ahem...... ahem...  Testing:  one...two...

Please substitute the term "SSL" with the term "Pro Tools" and the word "Clearmountain" with the word "Ricky Martin"

... ahem...... ahem...

Is a traffic jam the fault of the cars?

wwittman

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2005, 09:37:02 am »

is winning a race the "talent" of the car?

One driver may prefer a certain type of car over another.

I tend to agree with all of David's SSL opinions.
but that's just MY opinion.


I can work happily on the gear I like without needing others to agree with me.
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William Wittman
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zmix

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2005, 10:06:41 am »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 09:37

is winning a race the "talent" of the car?


William,
This is really the same point. The answer is no, in both cases.
Remember also the old adage "It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools"? I'll say that the SSL can sound very neutral, but there is always the temptation when working on an SSL to make things 'bigger' or 'louder' using the compression and EQ -because it's there- and this is where the trouble begins. When working on an 80 series Neve or an API or a Trident A range, these desires never arise because the console adds it's own sort of 'unbelievably awesome' to the sound, simply pushing up the faders is satisfaction enough. It's a real enough phenomenon, but hardly unique to the SSL, witness the 'digital revolution'. Digital can also sound quite neutral, but overuse of plugins can really impart an unwanted patina on the sound. It's really a matter of listening and being more creative in finding solutions.
-CZ

wwittman

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2005, 10:14:23 am »

We agree fundamentally... we just disagree in the SSL's "neutrality", which I see more as its inherently detrimental effect on the sound.

Yes it can be somewhat compensated for, but I hear its impact much more than I do the 'positive' impact of a Neve or API.

Running through a VCA and that many opamps in each channel strip cannot be artifact free.

But ultimately people should drive the best they can in ANY car... and should drive the cars or play the guitars they PREFER.
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William Wittman
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zmix

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2005, 10:32:35 am »

Yes, I agree with you. However, the API or Neve are certainly not neutral, but they are certainly euphonic.  My fundamental issue is with those who really cannot drive all that well describing the "sour grapes" of the SSL in a sort of sycophantic feeding frenzy. Then again, this is what we love about the internet...

J.J. Blair

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2005, 01:08:43 pm »

Well, as with most things audio, it's sometimes the limitations of the gear that make it attractive for certain applications.  What might look like a stupid idea on a schematic or an oscilloscope might have a function.  I find that the E EQ's sound a little crunchy, and that sometimes works on rock guitars, etc.  However, if my choices were between any SSL and an IC based console like the Series 80, I'm likely to pick the Trident simply for the fact that I like those EQs better and there is less temptation to use the gadgets (or for the band to ask you to use them).  And I've said it before, the J series is only beaten in the 'boring' department by the Neve Capricorn.  Zzzzzzzzzz...  Those two consoles are great if some weasel keeps asking you to recall mixes and redo them, and that's about it, as far as any purpose I could have for them.  
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

JGreenslade

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2005, 01:18:50 pm »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 14:37

is winning a race the "talent" of the car?



It's funny you should say that. A similar debate came up at another board, and I recited an old adage from motor-racing: "the best driver will always shine through, even if they're driving a double-decker bus".

The analogy implies to me that a talented designer will always make something *relatively decent*, regardless of whether it's discrete, or 5532 op-amps, and a good AE will always make a relatively professional mix, even if the console is stuffed full of 5532/34 (Bob Clearmountain?).

With all things being equal, I would say that I prefer discrete for the reasons stated in the following quote, but when are all things equal in the real-world?

Taken from http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/discrete/discrop.htm
Quote:


Circuitry made with discrete transistors is not obsolete. It is appropriate when:


1) A load must be driven to higher voltages than the opamp can sustain between the supply rails. Opamps are mostly restricted to supply voltages of +/-18 or +/-20 Volts. Hybrid-construction amplifiers, typically packaged in TO3 cans, will operate from rails as high as +/-100 V, but they are very expensive, and not optimised for audio use in parameters like crossover distortion. Discrete opamps provide a viable alternative.

2) A load requires more drive current, because of its low impedance, than an opamp can provide without overheating or current-limiting; eg any audio power amplifier

3) The best possible noise performance is required. Discrete bipolar transistors can outperform opamps, particularly with low source resistances, say 500 Ohms or less. The commonest examples are moving-coil head amps and microphone preamplifiers.

4) The best possible distortion performance is demanded. Most opamps have Class-B or AB output stages, and many of them (though certainly not all) show clear crossover artefacts on the distortion residual. A discrete opamp can dissipate more power than an IC, amd so can have a Class-A output stage, sidestepping the crossover problem completely.



Cheers,
Justin
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wwittman

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2005, 07:13:15 pm »

well except that a lot of good designers will AVOID topology they simply don't prefer... and those who dabble in both usually have  their best work clearly behind them (Rupert Neve)

""the best driver will always shine through, even if they're driving a double-decker bus."

well, actually the singular "best DRIVER" takes the singular "HE" not 'they'..

"the best driver will always shine through, even if HE's driving a double-decker bus".

bad grammar is even worse than IC ciruit design.


pedantically yours,
ww
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William Wittman
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J.J. Blair

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Re: IC's kill music
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2005, 07:27:02 pm »

William, wake up and smell the 21st century.  The days it is more politically correct to use "they" in order to avoid implying gender.  People fear feminazis more than grammar nazis.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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