Tom
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"The male brain is designed for ecstasy" -Dr. Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2005, 07:08:37 AM »
i think bob katz signature says alot...
"There are two kinds of fools, One says-this is old and therefore good. The other says-this is new and therefore better."
you cannot generalize the sound of ANYTHING!!!
not op-amps.... not discreet.... not tubes..... not transistors.....
of course tubes generally sound like tubes..... but there are exceptions....
the same can be said about opamps and everything else.....
anyone who disagrees to this are either inexperienced or ignorant!!
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Noting the music industry's complaints that illegal downloading means people are getting their music for free, he said, "Well, why not? It ain't worth nothing anyway." (b.dylan)
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2005, 07:25:56 AM »
zetterstroem wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 12:08 | i think bob katz signature says alot...
"There are two kinds of fools, One says-this is old and therefore good. The other says-this is new and therefore better."
you cannot generalize the sound of ANYTHING!!!
not op-amps.... not discreet.... not tubes..... not transistors.....
of course tubes generally sound like tubes..... but there are exceptions....
the same can be said about opamps and everything else.....
anyone who disagrees to this are either inexperienced or ignorant!!
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You are absolutely right! So that leaves us with desire for equipment which apeals most to us and our way of living.
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"The male brain is designed for ecstasy" -Dr. Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2005, 07:26:42 AM »
ammitsboel wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 11:26 |
Oh, is it...? I think you have to do some serious amp testing.
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jfrigo wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 04:24 | Even if your personal preference draws you elsewhere, you have to admit that's a pretty good rig, ICs or not.
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The Quad is VERY good you must admit Not the best, but VERY good.
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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2005, 10:46:02 AM »
dcollins wrote on Tue, 10 May 2005 19:54 |
Timeline wrote on Tue, 10 May 2005 19:01 | The LM 394 sounds a bit dark to me. It's up side is it's punchy.
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Then try a MAT-02. What is in the Calrec?
DC
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5532's all the way through but dual drive amps on OP's w xformers. So it's not all bad.
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Gary Brandt Timeline
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2005, 10:54:18 AM »
zetterstroem wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 13:08 |
you cannot generalize the sound of ANYTHING!!!
anyone who disagrees to this are either inexperienced or ignorant!!
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Sorry, but I can and do generalize the sound of 5532/4 and tlo072 op-amps. and the other common types used throughout the 80's in mixers, hi-fi, guitar amps etc. I have worked enough with them that I have an opinion based on experience. there are/were better chips such as the old op27 etc. and the new analog devices chips which sound better. But they still sound like complex miniature circuits. I will also generalize that a circuit with a small amount of components that are not cramped together will sound better for music than a miniaturized complex circuit no matter what the specs are. of course the designer has to know what they are doing. generalization and opinion is what enables me to make quick decisions without wasting time, and I assume most of you in your respective daily activities do the same. I do not need to experiment further with IC's since I have been doing it for years and have reached conclusions based on extended listening tests. The only reason that IC's were implemented for audio is cutting cost and saving space. Sound had little to do with it. Imagine an SSL with discrete electronics: it would have been as big as a truck and cost many times more than it did.
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2005, 12:43:51 PM »
you're not generalizing!
you use your experience to make judgements about what YOU do...
but the thing is that although you might need "uncolored" circuits for what you i might need an opamp based eq for what i do cause i think it colors better than eg. an avalon discreet class a eq...
or i might need a fuzz pedal with a dead battery...
better for you don't mean better for all other people at all times....
it's all about the context of things... and the quality you're trying to achieve...
if uncolored monitoring is what you're after i agree totally with what you say..... but when mixing i don't give a rats ass how it was built.... if that's the color i like!!
actually when mixing pop music the only things in the studio i didn't use was the gml comp the avalons and the fairman eq!! all fantastically built but completely boring to use....
if i was to record a jazz trio with two mics i would not compromise....
ok... now i think i stated the same thing a couple of times... you get the point
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Noting the music industry's complaints that illegal downloading means people are getting their music for free, he said, "Well, why not? It ain't worth nothing anyway." (b.dylan)
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2005, 03:01:57 PM »
If someone prefers the sound of IC's far be it for me to say he's wrong.
But I make my own choices based on what sounds better for ME, and so should everyone else.
It's obviously more USEFUL to make those preference lists based on real world choices... as in, I like API desk, i don't like SSl's, etc... rather than on topology. But if a pattern emerges it's not a bad thing to recognise, as part of healthy self-awareness, that one has a PREFERENCE for, say, discrete desks.
that doesn't say one "can't make a good record on____" or "can ONLY make a good record on _____"
it DOES say, based on what I've experienced, I'd RATHER make a record on _____
getting confrontational about it (as in "either ignorant or inexperienced") is both silly and pointless.
This sort of discussion is most useful as an exchange of opinions... because ultimately that's all it ever is.
I hope I never tell anyone he's just WRONG because he disagrees with me.
unless of course you believe that Saddam had anything at all to do with Sept 11, in which case, you ARE just wrong.
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William Wittman Producer/Engineer (Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2005, 03:19:27 PM »
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unless of course you believe that Saddam had anything at all to do with Sept 11, in which case, you ARE just wrong.
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Richard Clarke = Class A Paul Wolfowitz = IC
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« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2005, 04:49:24 PM »
thermionic wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 03:07 |
The LM394 may well come in an 8-pin DIL package (they also come in T-05 metal cans), but I've always classified them as "discrete". LM394 are known as "supermatched pairs", as they constitute a pair of NPN transistors made on the same substrate, thus improving matching (hence the name).
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No, it just acts like a pair of transistors, there are really bunches of parts in there..... It's even described in the JE-990 white paper, iirc. Quote: |
An engineer I know was asked to build a 24-chnl "sidecar" to accompany a Helios discrete console. NSC "supermatched pairs" were used, the noise performance of the sidecar was better than the main console, and the band were very happy.
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Not surprising as the 394 is quieter than 90% of opamps. Quote: |
Forgive me if I'm missing the point here, but I've always thought of supermatched pairs as respectable components - unfortunately I am now told they are on the "endangered species" list of semiconductors only used in pro-audio, and as such manufacturers are gradually phasing them out...
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The point is just that people have become so enamored of the term "discrete class A" that they think nothing else can possibly sound good! Even when they were actually hearing a dreaded IC... DC
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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2005, 06:05:43 PM »
All this talk of op amps and not a single discussion of slew rates. That seems to me to be the biggest distinction with ICs, their inability to handle transients as effectively as discrete op amps. However, I find the Analog Devices op amps to sound superior to the Texas Instruments TL07Xs. It is a common upgrade in Series 80 consoles to swap the ICs as such.
The thing I notice with all IC gear, which I will qualify as sounding worse than discrete gear (with a couple of exceptions like the LA2A) is lack of headroom.
Guess what I use for my master buss compressor ... an 1178. Guess what else ... it's got an IC for the input op amp. One of my particular 1178s, I prefer for that function rather than a stereo pair if 1176LNs. Even though I admit I have toyed with the idea of making one of my 1178s discrete.
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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2005, 07:18:04 PM »
Yep, 1178s have ICs ..DBX-160s too.
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