Tom
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2005, 07:54:32 PM »
There shouldn't be much mystery to the "groove" I think. The MPC runs at 96PPQ resolution and doesn't have any percentage quantize. When you swing quantize, the note will fall into one of those 96 points. Try changing Cubase to 96 PPQ. Then say for a set of 16th note hihat at 66% swing, your notes will land on 1:00, 1:31, 1:48, 1:79. I sure hope I explained this properly.  The thing that makes the MPC so "tight" is probably cause it's triggering the samples directly and not via MIDI.
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2005, 12:18:42 AM »
IMHO... it has more to do with how you handle the sample
rather than the timing
the old linn design handled the simultaneous triggering of samples in a much more "elegant" way than the simple "read from memory" samplers today
it had much to do with how the samples were played (read) from memory but the final mixing was analog
you can tell by those old machines having several outputs, with each drum sound potentially having its own output
this is something most "modern" samplers don't have, they read the sample and mix digitally then send to the output
the closest (IMHO) is the way emu does it (or used to do it), i think you can get the emu to do a good imitation of "linn swing" by programming the "arp mode" or using the "cords" to trigger sounds with a clock waveform
the old emu modules also do analog summing of multiple outputs
there's a lesson in there somewhere
everything new is not necessarily better
trevor
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2005, 03:16:38 AM »
INteresting thread,
I've wondered how it is the MPC does what it does,
As an acoustic 'real' drumming nut, I have to say I have become a big fan of this machine..(MPC 60 / MPC 3000) It just seems to have an appealing 'feel' with how it quantizes..Plus the way you can shift parts forward or backwards adds more 'feel' factor like how a drummer can lay back on the beat etc..
Its possible to program stiff lifeless beats though if so desired.
The Achilles heel of ALL drum machines / programmed drums is in the fills IMO, there's just too much randomness and nuance in the average human drum fill, somehow the machines & seqs just can't get near it..but as for the rest the MPC is simply the King of the snare, hat, kick boom bap..
Having said that, did anyone hear that UK artist 'Squarepusher'? I heard some of his stuff years ago, all programmed / sequenced beats (I think) that were just insane, sounding like some kind of mad Billy Cobham-esque drummer..I wonder how he did it..
Cheers,
RM
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2005, 06:19:08 AM »
I've always thought the unique groove of the MPC was due to 2 key reasons:
1) It's Motorola 6800-based
2) You have the whole shebang (sp?) on one motherboard - sampler and sequencer
The only real way (I wish I had time to do this) to make an objective analysis of MPC vs Logic etc would be to measure 2 hits on the same note with a twin-trace 'scope. I feel this could unlock some of the MPC mystery perhaps?
Justin (3000 owner since '95)
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Audio is a vocational affliction
"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2005, 05:27:44 AM »
I'm curious - there's just something about the MPC that feels so 'right',
How can this be?
Cuz there's a computer chip at the heart of it just like Logic etc..
Also the user interface is genius personified it must be said, with the pad array, easy menus and so forth..
(MPC 3000 since 2005 & already can't imagine life without)
Cheers,
RM
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2005, 01:31:57 PM »
Once upon a time, I could remember the click values on the MPC for my most popular swing percentages. As has been previously stated, with only 96ppqn resolution, it would be physically impossible for there to be anything particularly sophisticated about the MPC "groove"; as has also been previously stated - you can mimic those click points with any midi sequencer.
Despite the above, the MPC sounds totally unique, and after I got mine all my friends went ape over the "groove" and bought their own 3000s.
The only reasons I can attribute the "MPC groove - stands out a mile amongst other sequencers" to are the facts I stated in my last post:
It has the finest main CPU for digital sequencing, i.e. Motorola 6800 (I'm *told* there is a cult of programmers who treasure their Atari ST / Falcons for this reason - Vince Clark still uses his BBC model B for midi BTW)
Audio RAM and Sequencer are on 1 motherboard - no lag for optical isolators in midi connections etc.
The SP1200 is in a similar mould, and secondhand prices are still healthy (as are MPC 60 / 3000 prices), despite computers having 3Ghz + when the old MPC has 8 Mhz... (SP1200 is probably even slower).
The only way to end the debate would be to take a twin-trace 'scope to an MPC (I guess you could do it in software recording packages) and compare latency. Personally I suspect that the good old MPC will outperform any modern DAW, even with its thousandth of the processing speed, purely because you're not putting cables and optical converters in the path.
Justin
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Audio is a vocational affliction
"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2005, 03:03:53 PM »
let me put my opinion in another way "groove" consists of two things 1) timing 2) accent the timing on the MPC (or any of the old boxes) is not spectacular in any fashion the difference is the perception of accents to get the true swing "feel" you have to control the accent on the notes you are swinging i would speculate the accent (or to be more precise - the perception of the accented drum sound) is what gives the MPC and the older boxes the "groovy" feel the feel s undeniable in the MPC and older boxes to me -- that comes from the analog summing of the drum sounds in or out of the MPC i dont think it was intentional (well maybe a case of trial until it sounded as good as it does) because it is the result of short comings in the older designs themselves many things control the perception of accents 1) the timing of the initial impule of the drum sound 2) the attack and decay of the drum sound 3) the different pyscho-acoustic effects of two sounds happening and the same time but that's just a guess - who knows - just enjoy ps: i just heard another use of the linn in mary j blige's "it a wrap" - it carries the whole damn tune - damn thats a lot of hits for one designer
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2005, 03:05:46 PM »
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2005, 07:31:08 AM »
Well, Roger Linn is a musician, and reading about the design process of the Linn drum, he did a lot of it by feel. Like he decided not to include an anti alias filter on the D/As coz it sounded better without.
And the Adrenalinn is funky too.
He should get a session musician credit on every song that used a Linn or MPC!!
BTW you're absolutely right about accents. I would add that even a tightly quantized pattern with the accents done right will groove.
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2005, 10:24:13 AM »
I can offer a hint. The beginning of a sample is never the beginning of a beat.
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2005, 08:27:11 PM »
| thermionic wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 13:31 |
Personally I suspect that the good old MPC will outperform any modern DAW, even with its thousandth of the processing speed, purely because you're not putting cables and optical converters in the path.
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If you run Machfive on Digital Performer, you'll find there's nothing more accurate than it. Sample-accurate. Never drifts unless you tell it to do so. It's the slight inaccuracy of that slow processor and the limitations of the design that gives the MPC that randomness that feels so natural. Once you give the MPc any other clock source you lose some of that "groove" by itself, but in the end it will work and nobody will notice unless you tell them.
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya "There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines http://www.tukanart.com
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2005, 04:24:14 AM »
are you sure about loosing the groove when clocked? I thought midi clock just told it what tempo to play at and when to start / stop.. is that not that case?
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2005, 09:50:56 AM »
| Carl Taylor 43 wrote on Tue, 17 May 2005 04:24 |
are you sure about loosing the groove when clocked? I thought midi clock just told it what tempo to play at and when to start / stop.. is that not that case?
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It's just not the same groove. It feels different and it measures different, but not enough to make a record sell less copies.
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya "There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines http://www.tukanart.com
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2005, 12:34:36 PM »
| Carl Taylor 43 wrote on Tue, 17 May 2005 09:24 |
are you sure about loosing the groove when clocked? I thought midi clock just told it what tempo to play at and when to start / stop.. is that not that case?
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that is usually called Midi Machine Control. there are many ways to sync Midi Clock is sent 24 times per quarter note Song Position is the MIDI beat to start playing Midi Time code is like SMPTE the problem is, these terms are loosely agreed to by manufacturers, Midi Machine Control is sometimes used as a collective term for all of the above. i should also add, these terms may also be used differently depending on whether you are referring to the midi master or midi slave, the spec assumes a sort of "base line" capability of the slave, problems happen when the slave device can't do the expected behavior. This is usually the case with older midi devices.
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