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Author Topic: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?  (Read 4221 times)

ted nightshade

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"mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« on: April 27, 2005, 09:36:16 AM »

Here's the scenario. We finally really dialed our one-mic technique for live. It makes it absurdly easy to record the whole show- it's already mixed. This brings the enticing idea of being able to sell the CD of that very show, at that very show.

I could just do it to 16:44.1 and accept that the levels will be very low indeed- very dynamic act, no compression, we need the headroom. I could use the limiter in the SLAM! but it's not exactly transparent in between moments of actual limiting. So I'd prefer not to.

The next idea would be to do it at 24:44.1 and have the option of doing a gain change and dither, to pull the level up as high as it could go without getting into clipping or limiting. Then there's limiting, but I have my doubts about doing any limiting in a big hurry right after getting off stage!

Basically I'm thinking about putting together a little rig to take the raw one-track stuff, level it somehow, cut any songs that obviously trainwrecked, and produce multiple copies of CD's of the show. I'm not really concerned about competitive level, I just want to have plenty o' headroom while recording and be able to eliminate unnecessary headroom for the dupe. And having it tracked at 24 bit makes further mastering possible later for especially lucky tracks, for inclusion on a more formal album.

Now, I am pretty seriously phobic about the whole computer trip. Ideally I wouldn't touch one to do this. But if I have to, it needs to be something so simple that *even I* can confidently and quickly do what needs done, there by the edge of the stage or wherever.

And, I'm nuts about the sound. I'd rather just do it at 16:44.1 with low levels than mess up the sound with a crummy digital gain change.

I guess I could do it all right at the masterlink, avoiding the gain changes and suffering through the "is it dither?" if I needed to have a 24 bit copy for future real mastering.

Or is there a better, but stupidly simple, way?

Also, I wonder what to do for a duplicator that makes multiple CD's at once that really play everywhere a CD-R can play...

Get 'em while they're hot!
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Andy Simpson

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2005, 10:44:38 AM »

I may be missing the point here Ted, but do you mean to record another engineers mix of your music via a (nasty blaring) PA system? or do you play without PA and in a good sounding room?

I'm surprised you haven't answered the 'is there a stupidly simple way' yourself?!...tubes & tape! let 'em absorb the really really dynamic stuff and then you could even run live off the playback head directly to cd (or wherever) while you are actually performing!

Dunno 'bout duplicators though....how about a farm of those 10-cd jobbies?

Btw, it is a cool idea!

Andy
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Ronny

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2005, 03:25:44 PM »


I didn't understand your last question about duplicator, but I'll give you my take on the rest. A mono recorded show is going to have levels off between the instruments, unless you record in front of the mains and the FOH engineer is superb. If that's what you are doing I'd run two mics, one in front of each FOH side and just inside to pick up the sound from the stage, even if the FOH system is run mono, you'll get a larger stereo image. I recorded a festival awhile back with that technique, that had 5 bands performing, recording to the ML. Hadn't used a mic placement like that since the mid 70's, but the engineer that was supposed to record the show had a last minute emergency that he had to leave for and called me. By the time that I got there the show was just about to start and I didn't have time to setup anything. The mixing board was a Mackie and the soundcrew didn't look to be real proficient, so I opted not to run off their board. Any other time I run from the board and record the engineers stereo bus, committed to the engineers mix, but the crowd hears it that way and it's appropo for an after the show quickie cd. The cd's will be stereo instead of mono. More and more bands each day are digitally recording the show and selling cd's of the board mix afterwards. The RIAA tried to stop this procedure for some reason, I wonder how that development is going.
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ted nightshade

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2005, 08:47:57 AM »

Allow me to clarify: We use one mic to feed the PA. No monitors. I'm talking about recording that one mic as well as sending it to the PA. And I'm not talking about mic'ing the PA, although I could see the advantage in some other situations.

For outdoor stages, the bleed from the back of the PA should not be too bad, and the hypercardioid mic has pretty healthy nulls in the general direction of the PA speakers. Indoors, it could get a lot messier. Results will clearly vary with the venue.

Tape machine is just too much work, in addition to performing- I might feel differently if I had a Nagra or something- or some help! The idea is that it is very nearly as easy to record this set-up as it is not to. And the fuss of making ready-to-sell CD's is offset by the  potential for income and buzz- and plus, it would be something I did after my on-stage duties are over.

Right now my questions are about the issues of "mastering" (if you can call it that!) and duplication. I think I outlined the issues pretty clearly above... anything on that?

Thanks folks!
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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TotalSonic

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2005, 12:05:56 PM »

Ted -
I'd go for a tower duplicator with 7 burners as although it requires manual load in of the discs it allows a lot more discs to be burned in the same amount of time than auto-loading "disc factories" which usually only have one or two burners in them.  I've had success with towers made by Octave - http://www.octave.com & Microboards.  For printing get a laptop and a couple thermal printers.  Thermal printers - even though they cost more than inkjets initially and have less resolution and are usually only a single color - have the advantage of printing more discs per minute, being smudge proof and water resistant, and have less cost per disc.

You'll probably want to either get a shock mounted case or see if you can get it recased in a rack mount case if you have to transport it a lot - I don't really know of a company making this in rack mounted cases but it shouldn't be that hard to find a 4u case that you could just put the components from the tower in.

As far as recording - I'd lean towards getting a PC laptop with something like RME's CardBus in it hooked up to the stereo AD converters of your choice (been digging the Mytek Stereo96 to my ear as best bang for buck out there).  Record to 24bit - and then do some quick edits, maybe slap a limiter (I'd advise for a conservatively high threshold) across the 2 buss, and then dither of your choice - put in your PQ points and burn away.  This way if you love the performances you still have it in a form where you can do actual mastering with a better perspective on it later.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ted nightshade

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2005, 03:57:24 PM »

Hi Steve,

as I mentioned, the recording is dialed. And computers on stage are out. After we get off stage, a laptop could possibly work, given the right software. It's just the issue of dither, level adjustment w/o limiting, and duplication. I'm thinking of having pre-printed discs where I can just write in the date- some nice graphic with "So&So tour '05" or whatever. The tower duplicator sounds like the right idea. I had good results with one in a studio a few years back- I should check in and see what was used there- played everywhere with no complaints.

Really the question I have, other than duplication, is about some kind of software or other tool where I can do gain adjustments without significant degradation, put the mono signal in to both channels instead of just L, and some high quality dither.

Anybody else?
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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GoobAudio

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2005, 09:04:35 AM »

ted nightshade wrote on Wed, 27 April 2005 10:36

Here's the scenario. We finally really dialed our one-mic technique for live. It makes it absurdly easy to record the whole show- it's already mixed. This brings the enticing idea of being able to sell the CD of that very show, at that very show.
Get 'em while they're hot!



Interestingly Clearchannel, the folks responsible for ruining the pop music industry, has patented that idea and you may get sued by them if you do it.

But I would not let that stop me.

Phil
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ted nightshade

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2005, 09:52:46 AM »

GoobAudio wrote on Thu, 02 June 2005 06:04

ted nightshade wrote on Wed, 27 April 2005 10:36

Here's the scenario. We finally really dialed our one-mic technique for live. It makes it absurdly easy to record the whole show- it's already mixed. This brings the enticing idea of being able to sell the CD of that very show, at that very show.
Get 'em while they're hot!



Interestingly Clearchannel, the folks responsible for ruining the pop music industry, has patented that idea and you may get sued by them if you do it.

But I would not let that stop me.

Phil



Bring 'em on! We could use the publicity.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Phillip Graham

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2005, 11:36:53 AM »

Time to put my live sound hat on, yeah!

ted nightshade wrote on Thu, 28 April 2005 08:47

Allow me to clarify: We use one mic to feed the PA. No monitors. I'm talking about recording that one mic as well as sending it to the PA. And I'm not talking about mic'ing the PA, although I could see the advantage in some other situations.



Bluegrass?

Quote:


For outdoor stages, the bleed from the back of the PA should not be too bad, and the hypercardioid mic has pretty healthy nulls in the general direction of the PA speakers. Indoors, it could get a lot messier. Results will clearly vary with the venue.


The nature of the bleed from the PA will vary too, depending on the directivity and placement of the speakers, and the relative expertise of the folks who set up the PA.

There are a bunch of different ways to do live sound recordings, depending on genre, stage volume, venue, and number of channels available to record.  I've done mostly pop and rock in this setting.  Talking about the methodologies is a complete other topic.

For stereo "judge your performance tapes" that I give back to bands, I usually do some EQ to compensate for Fletcher Munson at concert vs. home playback levels, and sometimes some M/S balancing of the image.  I will normalize the tracks, but not apply any limiting.

For "take home" cd's, I will do all of the above plus limiting.  I have used both an L2 and TC limiter products for this.

Yes, you will notice the limiting artifacts.  Don't beat yourself up over this.  Even when I've really whacked things w/ the L2 (6dB), it's usually only one problem instrument (e.g. snare), and comes out no worse than the heavily comp'ed snare sounds people are used to on modern recordings.  It will still be a product most of your audience will be ok with, especially considering the messes they can buy at their local record store.

PM me if you would like some before and after samples.

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Bob Olhsson

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2005, 03:16:12 PM »

GoobAudio wrote on Thu, 02 June 2005 08:04

...Interestingly Clearchannel, the folks responsible for ruining the pop music industry, has patented that idea and you may get sued by them if you do it.
Cheap-Channel isn't doing anything Bill Graham didn't do before they bought the company that acquired BGP. If anybody ruined the pop music industry, it was probably the NFL but that's another discussion.

To be specific, Cheap Channel bought a company that had patented it. People have been selling recordings of live events since soon after the introduction of the cassette so I don't think that patent will fly.

Fibes

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2005, 03:39:03 PM »

Dare I say a masterlink might work? 'cause it's simple and self contained. Record to it, burn an untouched copy, limit it, burn cd, drop cd into duplicator and still have time for some blue-green algae.

Yes, i am now officially a heretic.

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ted nightshade

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 09:14:32 AM »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 02 June 2005 12:39

Dare I say a masterlink might work? 'cause it's simple and self contained. Record to it, burn an untouched copy, limit it, burn cd, drop cd into duplicator and still have time for some blue-green algae.

Yes, i am now officially a heretic.




Well, I'm recording to the Masterlink, and I do appreciate that it's simple and self-contained. It won't let me put my mono recording that's just in the L channel into both channels, and the DSP is pretty rough.

I haven't figured a way of splitting the signal into both sides of the ML that doesn't chow the sound- I wonder is there a way to do that with a trick AES cable maybe? To digitally split a signal?

We did a trial run outdoors with a PA that was so loud and clear on stage that you didn't need monitors hardly... we weren't using the monitors. It came out remarkably well and the skeptical soundguy came up after and told us "I heard something new today... I didn't think it would work but it sounded great." So that's nice!

I'm finding it plays everywhere very nicely w/o any EQ or limiting... you just got to turn it up!
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Bob Olhsson

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2005, 01:36:12 PM »

Masterlink is a complete pain to do simple edits with in a hurry.

I'd get a laptop and use Samplitude to burn the master. Firewire hard drives have become so cheap it's insane. It would be totally practical to drop into record at the beginning of a set, take it out at the end and then cobble together a ready to duplicate disk within ten minutes.

Slider2

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2005, 08:58:46 AM »

I've done a couple jobs like this.
The way we did it was first, we brought this crazy thing called an ISO panel.
It's a huge hanging padded jecklin disc type thing in the middle of the venue.
That was time alligned with the stage.
The way these guys approached the instant cd thing, was they had a board feed + the room mics blended feeding a couple laptops running PT.
I was in a truck taking all the signals (un-delayed room mics included) to multitrack for later mixing as well as doing a rough mix on the fly.
They had a finalizer on their outputs for the instant CD's they made at the show.
As soon as the stage show ends, the guys make some quick ID's and go into duplication mode.
They had a huge amount of cd dup towers and they manually loaded each one.
Huge stress involved, but they had a cd's ready as people were walking out the door.
After the last one I decided live recording was not for me.
Too much stress.
Expect this to eventually become a standard thing for live shows.
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ted nightshade

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Re: "mastering" for the toasted musician, post-show?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2005, 12:40:18 PM »

Thanks for the responses folks!
Back for more.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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