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[StudioRhythm]

Lawrence, you're missing the point on quickpunch. Yes, Quickpunch allows you to punch in and out of tracks, and the new(er) Trackpunch feature lets you record enable/disable tracks "on the fly," while you're playing/recording/whatever. But what Quickpunch does that's noteworthy and useful is this -- say you have your bass track in record ready mode, to do a punch in. You punch in, but it's a beat too late (or the bass player played a different fill that started a beat earlier/later, or whatever.) PT has been recording the whole take from the second you hit play, so you can then trim your punch to start a beat earlier. In other words, no missed punches. That's the "lifesaving feature." I'd be surprised if this a PT exclusive, but's it's certainly something that you can't do on a tape-based recorder.

[djui5]

wwittman wrote on Sun, 24 April 2005 19:03

Let's say there's a single track that I want to remove from bar 9 through bar 16... in other words joining the end of bar 8 to the downbeat of bar 17... why SHOULD you be able to do that any faster in your mystery program than in ProTools? Unless it has artificial intelligence and voice recognition. Which would be cool.

This can be done in about 5 seconds in PT's.
That's what shuffle mode is for, and with a-z set you can break the hilighted section (8 bars) with just a single keystroke "b", then hit delete and the region moves into place on it's own. Really simple.
Then for a crossfade, hit F2 (slip mode), the select the fade you wanna do and hit f. Or you can have the supertool active "F5 and F6 pressed together turns this on" and when you mouse near the bottom of 2 regions that are butted together, it wil allow you to make a crossfade of any size you like by clicking and dragging to the left. Takes about 2 seconds. Pro-Tools will also autofade a selection of regions by hitting the f key (if a-z is on).

[wwittman]

I don't miss on drop-ins.

[Tim Gilles]

wwittman wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 22:31

I don't miss on drop-ins.

LMAO.

Best regards,

Tim "Rumblefish" Gilles

[pipelineaudio]

"Or you can have the supertool active "F5 and F6 pressed together turns this on" and when you mouse near the bottom of 2 regions that are butted together, it wil allow you to make a crossfade of any size you like by clicking and dragging to the left. "

this might be just what Im looking for

Now the guy here must have turned off the waveform display options, because if I try to move and event, all I can see is a box with nothing in it, how do you turn it back on?

[pipelineaudio]

I cant get it to do this. If I hit F5+F6 it changes to the zoom tool

Also, I cant find the shortcut key for moving events to adjacent tracks

[henchman]

djui5 wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 19:31

wwittman wrote on Sun, 24 April 2005 19:03 Let's say there's a single track that I want to remove from bar 9 through bar 16... in other words joining the end of bar 8 to the downbeat of bar 17... why SHOULD you be able to do that any faster in your mystery program than in ProTools? Unless it has artificial intelligence and voice recognition. Which would be cool. This can be done in about 5 seconds in PT's.

Whats even cooler is the new Nuendo feature where you don't do any editing at all. Just name the regions, and put them in a playlist. Play them abck i whatever order you want. If you wnat to keep it, you hit a button, and the whole arrangment is pasted together.

Now  THAT is what I call a ground breaking feature.

Not Quickpunch.

[LawrenceF]

Tim Gilles wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 22:38

wwittman wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 22:31 I don't miss on drop-ins. LMAO. Best regards, Tim "Rumblefish" Gilles

Lemme see "Track Punch" is the "new" feature that does what I was writing about?  Let's your recorder act like a recorder?  Ok I used the wrong term.  I'm really happy digi gave you "Track Punch".

Quick Punch records before you punch in case you punch late?  Wow.  You don't miss on drop ins.  Great. I've never missed a drop in.  Never.  When my daw auto-punches it can be set to do "record early" by whatever amount you set it for in the preferences.  2 bars, 8 bars whatever.  That's been a feature from long ago.  But I don't use it.  Why?

ATTENTION:  (most) DAWS HAVE UNLIMITED TRACKS.

What's the point of punching on the same track and possibly missing a "drop in"?  I never punch on the same track, why should I or would I with a DAW?  I record enable a new track and roll the song with the new track in record.  Why not?  I've got a gazillion to use and that's what they're for.  Once the player begins to play I either mute the original track or it may be set to auto-mute at a certain point.  Everything that's played is recorded.  Works like a charm.  

When the new part (track) is finished recording I simply drag it with the mouse into the same track as the original part.  What happens? It falls into another LANE of the same track.  I can then trim the beginning or end of the part to use whatever part I want to use as a "punch" on that track.  Takes about 5 seconds and I've never missed a "drop in".

When viewing the lanes you are free to cut, mute, delete, size or otherwise directly edit any parts of any or all lanes.  The  bottom active part of any lane that's not muted plays at that  time.  Simple.  Never missed a "drop in".   When the comping is done I can collapse the lanes into one single lane with all editing and comping intact with one mouse click.  When editing a comp or a "punch" I open the lanes, edit and collapse.  This all happens in the same window.

If I loop record every pass gets placed in it's own lane within the same track.  Unlimited takes all on one track all each in their own lane and all viewed at the same time for easy comping.

If you've never experienced an app that uses track lanes during recording and editing you should.  It's a beautiful thing.

Another thing that drove me crazy about PTLE was the tracks being stuck in one place.  I'm sure that's fixed now.  I was used to freely moving tracks around in the arrange window of a daw, You know, grabbing a vocal FX return track or group track and dragging it up to sit just below the tracks being grouped or effected.  This is true for any type of track.  Drag and place tracks or groups of tracks in any order and have the mixer follow that arrangement.   PTLE didn't allow that back then.  Drove me nuts.  I had to go searching for tracks.  

It's also nice to have folder tracks where multiple tracks can be placed in one track folder and edited all at once as if they were a single track.  Saves a lot of screen space when dealing with a 48 track project.  

However, now I do understand the value of Quick Punch in PT for it's users.  Thanks for clearing that up.  

I can see how that would be useful to you and I apologize for the mistake in terms.  I'm glad they finally gave you "Track Punch".

It's just really weird to see people raving about features that have been available for years in other apps.

Lawrence

[pipelineaudio]

surely you can rearrange tracks

[StudioRhythm]

Quote:

Lemme see "Track Punch" is the "new" feature that does what I was writing about?  Let's your recorder act like a recorder?  Ok I used the wrong term.  I'm really happy digi gave you "Track Punch".

Pretty stupid name, I agree. But, it works well. I don't really care much about the names, I care about whatever works (wrong forum, I know....)

Quote:

Quick Punch records before you punch in case you punch late?  Wow.  You don't miss on drop ins.  Great. I've never missed a drop in.  Never.  When my daw auto-punches it can be set to do "record early" by whatever amount you set it for in the preferences.  2 bars, 8 bars whatever.  That's been a feature from long ago.  But I don't use it.  Why? ATTENTION:  (most) DAWS HAVE UNLIMITED TRACKS. What's the point of punching on the same track and possibly missing a "drop in"?  I never punch on the same track, why should I or would I with a DAW?  I record enable a new track and roll the song with the new track in record.  Why not?  I've got a gazillion to use and that's what they're for.  Once the player begins to play I either mute the original track or it may be set to auto-mute at a certain point.  Everything that's played is recorded.  Works like a charm.   When the new part (track) is finished recording I simply drag it with the mouse into the same track as the original part.  What happens? It falls into another LANE of the same track.  I can then trim the beginning or end of the part to use whatever part I want to use as a "punch" on that track.  Takes about 5 seconds and I've never missed a "drop in". When viewing the lanes you are free to cut, mute, delete, size or otherwise directly edit any parts of any or all lanes.  The  bottom active part of any lane that's not muted plays at that  time.  Simple.  Never missed a "drop in".   When the comping is done I can collapse the lanes into one single lane with all editing and comping intact with one mouse click.  When editing a comp or a "punch" I open the lanes, edit and collapse.  This all happens in the same window. If I loop record every pass gets placed in it's own lane within the same track.  Unlimited takes all on one track all each in their own lane and all viewed at the same time for easy comping. If you've never experienced an app that uses track lanes during recording and editing you should.  It's a beautiful thing.

That's cool, but it sure sounds like a lot of work to do every time for a punch in. With Quickpunch, I hit play. I hit record when I want to start recording, and hit stop when I'm done. Then,  I can edit the track any way I see fit later (or not.) If the punch was good (and it is 99% of the time,) I'm done. Works great, like a tape machine with  backup.

Quote:

Another thing that drove me crazy about PTLE was the tracks being stuck in one place.  I'm sure that's fixed now.  I was used to freely moving tracks around in the arrange window of a daw, You know, grabbing a vocal FX return track or group track and dragging it up to sit just below the tracks being grouped or effected.  This is true for any type of track.  Drag and place tracks or groups of tracks in any order and have the mixer follow that arrangement.   PTLE didn't allow that back then.  Drove me nuts.  I had to go searching for tracks.

What version was that? I've been using PT for quite a few years and that's always been a feature just as you describe it. In fact, that's been a feature since PTLE first came out. Sounds like you didn't spend a whole lot of time with it before you decided it sucked.

Quote:

It's also nice to have folder tracks where multiple tracks can be placed in one track folder and edited all at once as if they were a single track.  Saves a lot of screen space when dealing with a 48 track project.

That's what PT does with playlists. You can have as many playlists as you want for each track, having different takes, different edits, whatever, but sharing the same track/plugins/routing/voice. Again, this has been a feature for quite a while, as long as I remember.

Quote:

However, now I do understand the value of Quick Punch in PT for it's users.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Hey, no problem.

[StudioRhythm]

wwittman wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 19:31

I don't miss on drop-ins.

Sure, if you're doing pop or rock music, and all the parts are simple and set, it works great to have a good engineer who knows exactly where to punch. That's all you need, plus maybe a drummer who knows how to play along the bar before on the same cymbals, in the same spot, at the same volume.

It gets hairier if you're doing more improv-based music, and this is where features like Quickpunch become something more than a crutch for a bad engineer.

I'm a bass player, and I do a fair amount of session work. Last month, I was playing on a straight-ahead jazz session with an excellent drummer, and we needed to punch in on an ending. This drummer, while excellent by any standards, was not particularly studio-savvy (many jazz drummers aren't, and this drummer is of an age where he definitely didn't grow up with punch-ins.)

I was going to be mixing the project, so I suggested to the engineer that he use Quickpunch mode. He didn't want to, because he didn't really know how it worked and didn't see any advantage. Long story short, the drummer played a slightly different fill into the punch point. The engineer had set the punch to the "right" spot, but it didn't work, and I was stuck in the mix trying to camouflage a bad edit. If he'd used Quickpunch, I could have just started the punch two beats earlier, and that would've been that, no phantom cymbals dissapearing or anything.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to come off as a champion of Digidesign, or of DAWs in general either. There are a lot of things that I think suck about DAW recording (staring at the screen while recording, fixing/dealing with latency, staring at the screen while recording, computer crashes, staring at the screen while mixing, hard drive crashes, having your clients stare at the screen while mixing....)

BUT, I do think that things like Quickpunch are useful advances, and I appreciate them. I can't tell you how many times I've been on pop/rock sessions as a bass player with a good engineer, working on 2" or ADATs or whatever, and it's been impossible to get a punch right the first (or second time), even with me playing it right each time, because the engineer doesn't know exactly where to punch in or out. (I know, operator error, but I'm glad those guys have Quickpunch if I have to be the bass player on their session!

[Extreme Mixing]

"I've never missed a punch."  Hahahahahahaha!!!

I don't understand how any engineer could say, with a straight face, that they have NEVER missed a punch.  I've been in the room with some of the greatest, and they all suffer from the same problem.  They are human, and prone to making mistakes now and then, and some of them happen when the red light is on.

Quick punch is a brilliant feature.  How could you know, for sure, which breath will work the best in a ballad, the one connected to the last word, or the new word?  Quick punch keeps your options open.  If you're punching a whole band, you can use those cool new pick-up notes from the bass player, while punching on the downbeat.

It's fine to love your program, and It's fine to hate Pro Tools.  But there is a lot of misinformation in this thread from people who either don't know, or have an axe to grind.  Go figure...


Steve

[wwittman]

Hey, when I make a mistake, I'm going to be the very first to admit it.

[Extreme Mixing]

Exactly.  That's when you know you're ready to do this job.

Steve

[LawrenceF]

Extreme Mixing wrote on Tue, 26 April 2005 10:56

"I've never missed a punch."  Hahahahahahaha!!! I don't understand how any engineer could say, with a straight face, that they have NEVER missed a punch.  I've been in the room with some of the greatest, and they all suffer from the same problem.  They are human, and prone to making mistakes now and then, and some of them happen when the red light is on. Steve

When I say "never" I mean never with a daw.  Of course I missed a punch with a tape deck.  In the daw I always go to another track and hit record.  I haven't missed one in the daw yet.  It's not a lot of work to grab and drop the part into the original track and trim it.  Takes a few seconds.  I don't have to mute anything because the new part, being on the bottom lane, automatically plays when it gets there.  It's really seamless.

I do admit (...eating crow ...ugh!) that there was apparently some things I simply missed in PTLE.  I may have been too hasty in judging it when I returned it.  I'm a pretty bright guy but I had a lot of trouble doing a lot of things.

The main issue for me at the time was the XP drivers for X-Box.  I bought it when they were fairly new and I had a lot of problems.  The M-Box hardware worked great with the Digi asio drivers and my native daw though.  Now that the XP side has matured I may have to grab another MBox just for compatibility.  I'll try harder to learn it this time.  

As far as moving tracks and mixer channels (not audio parts but the entire track with all of its settings in the arrange window) around, that one completely escaped me.  I could not figure it out.  My bad.

Quote:

It's fine to love your program, and It's fine to hate Pro Tools. But there is a lot of misinformation in this thread from people who either don't know, or have an axe to grind. Go figure...

Axe to grind... you hit it right on the head.  My intent was not to bash Pro Tools.  It's a great program.  There is simply no doubt about that.  If it weren't so many people wouldn't be using it.

When you hear things from people like my earlier comments it's usually a knee-jerk reaction to people constantly telling me how great PT is and how I'm using a "toy made for hobbyists".  If I had a dollar for every time I heard that I could retire.  However, that's no excuse because you guys didn't do that.

I sincerely apologize.  I should know better.

Lawrence