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Author Topic: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?  (Read 163802 times)

compasspnt

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #285 on: November 13, 2009, 02:02:00 pm »

Merry, please re-read the entire thread, and also the similar one at the top of Whatever Works.


The point is to hit the digital domain at the lowered level, not to just automatically reduce banks of faders during ITB mixing.
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merrymerry

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #286 on: November 13, 2009, 06:18:34 pm »

it's you who needs to read the entire thread.I already did.
your arrogance is incredible to the extreme that you completely missed my point.
please go and sigh knowingly somewhere else.
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compasspnt

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #287 on: November 13, 2009, 11:32:22 pm »

I apologise to you, Mr. Merry, if I misunderstood your post.

Mr. Terry.
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PaulyD

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #288 on: November 14, 2009, 02:25:36 am »

Merry,
my sigh wasn't a knowing sigh, it was an uh-oh-here-we-go-again sigh. The subject of recording levels has been debated at great length on these forums over a number of years, and of course I feel compelled to read every word…

Anyway, as a veteran of these forums, I can tell you Terry is a genuine good-guy and I'm sure his suggestion was a friendly one. He's just trying to help us all make the best records we can.

Paul

Wireline

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #289 on: November 16, 2009, 08:10:35 am »

PaulyD wrote on Sat, 14 November 2009 01:25


... Terry is a genuine good-guy and I'm sure his suggestion was a friendly one. He's just trying to help us all make the best records we can.






yes, console mixing is still the preferred method here.  For our workflow, just works better, sounds better, delivers the goods faster.

Sidebar: Even if Terry was sharpshooting (which I don't think was the case) then I'd be paying close attention to it...There's a rumor going around he has been involved in one or two records.


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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #290 on: November 21, 2009, 08:48:25 pm »

Ron Steele wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 10:07

It's been so long since I grabbed any kind of faders, that I often wonder, if it would make a difference how I would balance a mix just because of the actual physical "touch".

Any more thoughts on that?


My fingers are tied to my ears through my brain.

No faders = no mix.

There is something about being able to "touch" the instruments through a fader that I simply cannot do without.

Cheers
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thedoc

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #291 on: November 26, 2009, 12:12:57 am »

Just a quick note on recording levels during recording to a digital medium:

If you record too hot (such as -3dB below clipping) you may be actually clipping intersample peaks that you do not know about.

Pulling down faders later will not cure clipped recordings.  

I know I hear an echo in here somewhere...sigh...
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #292 on: December 02, 2009, 01:11:06 pm »

thedoc wrote on Wed, 25 November 2009 21:12

Just a quick note on recording levels during recording to a digital medium:
If you record too hot (such as -3dB below clipping) you may be actually clipping intersample peaks that you do not know about.
Pulling down faders later will not cure clipped recordings.  
I know I hear an echo in here somewhere...sigh...


I too have been more and more recording in the "yellow zone" and hitting peaks at about -6 dbFS. This also seems to help when mixing, as there is still more headroom in the individual instruments for more processing, if it needs it. Sometimes I get recordings done by other engineers, and I find myself actually gaining DOWN some of the individual instruments, because as as soon as I put a plug-in on there, it immediately just clips at any level I set the plugin to. I had this happen to an electric bass recording for a whole album. I guess no one was looking at the clipping red LED lights...

Typically I have a final mix not hit above -3dbFS, to give a little headroom for mastering. Of course it also matters what music I'm mixing.

Cheers
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compasspnt

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #293 on: December 02, 2009, 01:53:59 pm »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Wed, 02 December 2009 13:11

Sometimes I get recordings done by other engineers, and I find myself actually gaining DOWN some of the individual instruments, because as as soon as I put a plug-in on there, it immediately just clips at any level I set the plugin to. I had this happen to an electric bass recording for a whole album. I guess no one was looking at the clipping red LED lights...



Bass especially can act very differently in a software recording programme than in an analogue console, level-wise.

For those with a desk, check the level of a bass guitar on the desk meters, compared to the PT ones...it's almost always recorded too hot, even if the levels look fairly OK on the DAW.
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #294 on: December 06, 2009, 06:56:07 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 02 December 2009 10:53


Bass especially can act very differently in a software recording programme than in an analogue console, level-wise.

For those with a desk, check the level of a bass guitar on the desk meters, compared to the PT ones...it's almost always recorded too hot, even if the levels look fairly OK on the DAW.



I hear you. Usually I record the bass with peaks at about -10 to -8 at most, even when compressing. I really can't mix if those initial transients of the bass aren't there. It ends up sounding like total mush.

I have had the occasion to use an SPL Transient Designer on a poorly recorded bass track, and was able to save that mix.

I might look into getting the software version, and comparing it to a rental harware unit, and see which one I like best.

Cheers
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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #295 on: February 26, 2010, 07:56:20 am »

merrymerry wrote on Sat, 31 October 2009 21:39

 In samplitude and sequoia in the "general" settings there is an option to lower all mixer strips by 6, 12 or 18 db!!
Samp user here.... That's very easy to do, basic digital math, each time you shift data to the right, you attenuate by 6dB. But in the end, you loose the LSB's, so the improvement you get in digital resolution when tracking is lost in this downscale operation. I won't rise the subject of whatever headroom issues, because it has been beaten to death, and each one camps on their position.
Quote:

 Thats right...  you can record so you are peaking at -3 db to get the fullest possible recording quality....
"fullest possible recording quality" is an issue that involves more than one parameter. Bit depth is just one of these parameters. Now, if your analog equipment starts to fart out at +12dBu, you may not want to record at -3dBfs (equivalent to +15 to +21dBu in analog.
Quote:


Bobkatz , maybe you could suggest this to your customers that use samplitude or sequoia?

Warm regards, Merry.


I don't think it's anybody's role to advocate an MO that may well be suitable for you and your configuration, and completely inadequate for someone else.
I think you've done the right thing: making members aware of that feature (that I personally don't use).
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Tomas Danko

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #296 on: February 26, 2010, 08:24:16 am »

Geoff Emerick de Fake wrote on Fri, 26 February 2010 12:56

merrymerry wrote on Sat, 31 October 2009 21:39

 In samplitude and sequoia in the "general" settings there is an option to lower all mixer strips by 6, 12 or 18 db!!
Samp user here.... That's very easy to do, basic digital math, each time you shift data to the right, you attenuate by 6dB. But in the end, you loose the LSB's, so the improvement you get in digital resolution when tracking is lost in this downscale operation. I won't rise the subject of whatever headroom issues, because it has been beaten to death, and each one camps on their position.



And once more it's down to actual implementation.

Most DAW engines are floating point 32 bit and most people record and store audio data at 24 bit.
Whenever you shift it one bit to increase or decrease the gain by 6.02 dB you are moving the 24 bit set of data within those 32 bits, maintaining full data integrity even at extreme gain reductions.

In theory you might lose LSB's, but in practice you usually do not.
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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #297 on: February 26, 2010, 02:10:27 pm »

Tomas Danko wrote on Fri, 26 February 2010 07:24



And once more it's down to actual implementation.

Most DAW engines are floating point 32 bit and most people record and store audio data at 24 bit.
Whenever you shift it one bit to increase or decrease the gain by 6.02 dB you are moving the 24 bit set of data within those 32 bits, maintaining full data integrity even at extreme gain reductions.

In theory you might lose LSB's, but in practice you usually do not.
You're absolutely right; one would have to record at ridiculously low level to actually loose LSB's. And in that case, I don't see the point of reducing level.
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Mark D.

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #298 on: May 11, 2010, 07:27:20 pm »

This thread has long since tapered off. I'm wondering if anyone would like to reopen it. I have some thoughts for discussion
on the A/D and preamp stage aspects that could be good for discussion here. But I want to see if there are any takers first.
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compasspnt

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Re: DAW & Desks: Is ANYBODY actually still mixing on their desk?
« Reply #299 on: May 11, 2010, 10:18:48 pm »

There is a reason this was made a "Sticky."

I say go for it.
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