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Author Topic: Steely Dan - I'm a fool  (Read 25056 times)

Jonathan Heimberg

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Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« on: April 18, 2005, 07:19:58 PM »

Howdy,

I'm a youngun, so I may be wrong, but does Steely Dan do "I'm a fool to do your dirty work"??

The reason I ask, is I just hear that on the radio, and there's a little sax break (pretty simple), but the sound of that sax... omg!!

Does anyone know the signal chain?? That is the sexiest sax my little ears have ever heard... I know it wouldn't work in every style, but I'd say that tone was nailed..

ciao
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halljams

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2005, 07:37:26 PM »

That's old.... but.... Wayne Shorter.. maby?
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David Schober

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2005, 07:39:08 PM »

Don't know about the signal chain, but if you notice the vocal sounding odd, it's because it isn't Fagan.  It was David Palmer, who was brought into the group because of Fagan's fear of singing live.  Once they realized they could make a career as a studio band that ended their need for David's lead vocals.

He told me that they brought him in for introductions at Village Recorder in Santa Monica.  When the brought him in they were playing back "Do It Again."  He realized genius when he heard it and accepted the gig on the spot.
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David Schober

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 11:08:19 PM »

Sax solo by Jerome Richardson.

Roger Nichols engineered the album. I've recalled Fagen and Becker talking a lot about 'expensive German microphones', so that might narrow the mic possibilities... ? Recorded at the Village Recorder, LA.

Fagen DID hate singing live, but two of the three big hits (Do It Again and Reelin' in the Years) featured his vocals. That may have influenced the decision too...
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Jonathan Heimberg

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2005, 01:10:58 AM »

I just noticed that the sax didn't sound like every other sax in the world... warm and smooth, with no sharp edge to it.
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Jonathan
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 02:13:29 AM »

David Palmer sings "Dirty Work".  He was asked to leave the band due to personality problems.  (I know you're shocked.)  Defintely a better singer than Fagen, but it's the character of Fagen's voice that makes him so appealing.

As far as everybody I've ever talked to who recorded a lot in the '70s, the go to mics for tenor sax were the Neumann U47, U67 and the RCA 44BX (and still are).  Listening to that recording, I'd think it's safe to say that it's not a ribbon mic.  It's more than likely a U47 with not much compression evident.  

The signal path isn't going to be that hard to find, but getting a sax player than can make his horn sound like that ... well, that's another story!
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Eric Rudd

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 07:25:21 AM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 07:13

... the character of Fagen's voice that makes him so appealing.



That's weird. I was listening to "The Nightfly" on my iPod on the drive home from work yesterday.  Cool

What's shocking is how LOUD the other stuff on my iPod is by comparison.

Eric
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RKrizman

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 12:28:53 PM »

Eric Rudd wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 07:25

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 07:13

... the character of Fagen's voice that makes him so appealing.



That's weird. I was listening to "The Nightfly" on my iPod on the drive home from work yesterday.  Cool

What's shocking is how LOUD the other stuff on my iPod is by comparison.

Eric


If it was as loud as everything else it would rip your head off.  I've never shared everybody else's infatuation with early digital sound,  especially that album.
Heresy, I know.

-R
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jwhynot

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 03:24:03 PM »

"Nightfly" and "Gaucho"

I see these CDs lying around studios near the player, and have assumed that people use them as a sort of gold standard for sound.

I like the songs.  Met but don't know Roger N particularly, but like him anyway.

But I have never liked how those records sound.

The early albums are OK tho'

So you're not the only heretic, Rick.  Not the even the only heretic on the west side!
JW
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RKrizman

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 04:02:17 PM »

jwhynot wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 15:24

"Nightfly" and "Gaucho"




Ouch, I would never put those two in the same sentence.  I still listen to Gaucho all the time.  I love how it sounds--yes, very dry and matter of fact, but it suits the music.  It's quaint ole analog recording at its Steely Danniest.  It's the culmination of something they almost attained with Gaucho's more soulful little sister, Aja.

-R
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David Schober

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 05:20:42 PM »

RKrizman wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 15:02

jwhynot wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 15:24

"Nightfly" and "Gaucho"



It's quaint ole analog recording at its Steely Danniest.  It's the culmination of something they almost attained with Gaucho's more soulful little sister, Aja.

-R


Hate to burst your bubble there, but I'm pretty certain that Gaucho was, with one exception, a digital recording.  Not only that, but I was told by Elliot Scheiner that the drums on Gaucho were performed by the Wendal drum machine, programmed by Porcaro and the others.  They never listed them as a drum machine because they had a philosophical position that it not be credited as such.  ( I once heard Elliot make this point clear to his assistant at the time, Ivy Skof )  By the time Gaucho came along, Roger, and Elliot being early digital converts, had jumped onto the behemoth 3M digital monster. (yeah I know that's redundant...but I thought it deserved it)

I never saw the original Wendal (in case you're wondering, this was nothing like Wendal II)  I was told it had multiple outs and had the ability to exhange samples when programmed for a fill.  (left hand hit, then right hand) which gave it a sound and feel yet to be beaten.

As to the one exception of analog, it was the song, "Third World Man."  This was recorded by Billl Schnee on the Aja sessions.  There was some speculation as to which song from Aja made it's way into Gaucho, but it was confirmed by a friend of mine who was an assistant on the Aja tracking sessions at Producer's Workshop.  Years later he found an old 1/4" quarter-track tape of rough mixes of the Aja sessions.  (If you know what a quarter track tape is, then you're a true veteran!)  Anyway, the tape, believe it or not, had rough mixes of the tracks from the Aja session.  No vocals, not even guide, and from what it sounds like, no overdubs.  Included in this tape was Aja, Josie, I Got The News, an outake with a totally different feel of Peg, and Third World Man.

Even all those years later, at 7.5 ips, 1/4" quarter-track the stuff sounded amazing!  For sure it's hissy and you can hear the limitations of the format, but hearing this stuff was very, very cool.  Especially hearing Steve Gadd's amazing solo without any overdubs....wow!

One last bit if Steely Dan trivia....I was also told that they had a song that was simply amazing but, right before mixing was accidentally erased by the tech when lining up the machine.  (come to think of it, that must have been analog???...fyi the guilty tech left the building and never returned to work!!)  Anyway, they tried to reproduce it, but when it never came out as good, they dropped it.  I'm guessing here, but a now deceased mastering engineer named Arnie Acosta had a session booked with them and the album was called "High Steaks."  I'm guessing that the erased song had that name...as in keeping with the tradition the boys had in naming the album after a song)  Anyway...if that story is true...and I believe the source...then that would explain the resurrection of Third World Man from the Aja session.

This all probably sounds a bit bogus, but I heard all this from first hand accounts....for what it's worth.  I hope you all enjoy the trivia.  Those albums were major reasons for me even getting into the biz.  
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David Schober

halljams

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 06:21:39 PM »

The erased tune i belive, was "The Second Arrangment"

You can hear it and many other fine Danish outakes etc here.....

http://www.andymetzger.com/sounds/
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compasspnt

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2005, 06:48:04 PM »

halljams wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 18:21

The erased tune i belive, was "The Second Arrangment"

You can hear it and many other fine Danish outakes etc here.....

http://www.andymetzger.com/sounds/



Back in those days, when I was at the "old" Masterdisk with Bob L one day (mastering a ZZ Top album), the whole Steely Dan gang were there also, just finishing up one of theirs...they made a bit of good-natured "fun" of me for "still" recording on analogue tape, which they called "24 compressors."

But I must admit, there was sure no other machine quite like that 3M digital...
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wwittman

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2005, 07:56:09 PM »

As many here already know... these records make me run screaming from the room.

I don't like the sound at ALL.
Sterile to the nth.

The fact that it was a drum machine only helps to eplain the souless, lifeless quality of the entire thing.
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bblackwood

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Re: Steely Dan - I'm a fool
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2005, 07:59:35 PM »

wwittman wrote on Tue, 19 April 2005 18:56

As many here already know... these records make me run screaming from the room.

I don't like the sound at ALL.
Sterile to the nth.

The fact that it was a drum machine only helps to eplain the souless, lifeless quality of the entire thing.

"Do you have any idea how hard it is to make human players sound exactly like midi?"
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Brad Blackwood
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