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[xonlocust]

i don't really fully understand digital watermarking in practice. in theory, sure i get it - but at what stage does this watermark get added to my recording? seems to me it has to be at the mastering stage - somewhere between me handing over the 1/4" reels and the duplication master - yet i dont recall seeing anything about it here - at least my search for watermark didnt really turn up anything useful.

any insights?  i hear sesac does this somehow, but i'm with ascap.  is there an independent way of doing this, ie - could i watermark my cd, then go to some 3rd party service and have them give me numbers that i can use as leverage against ascap/my label or whatever if there were some discrepency?  

[chrisj]

Might be because it would have to be obvious enough to survive psychoacoustic low-quality mp3 encoding, which by design discards inobvious information. Why do you even want to do this? Maybe there's a better way of accomplishing what you want than watermarking.

I'm not surprised nobody here wants to talk about it. Almost everything we talk about is for getting many subtle enhancements of tonality which would then get obliterated by the watermarking. It's just not a fun subject of conversation for an AE, unless you're into the abstractions of how it's accomplished, or interested in legalisms and copy protection.

[Bob Olhsson]

You are confusing watermarking with fingerprinting. The PROs are now logging broadcasts using technology that can identify specific recordings. Watermarking is a feature offered by pressing plants to record labels. The details are not public knowledge.

[xonlocust]

chris - i'm not really specifically trying to accomplish anything other than to gather information, even if only theotetical info.  my band is about to record a record that will be coming out in fall on an indie, so i wanted to see if there was anything new i should be anticipating. i thought something of this nature would have to be done in mastering, which will be coming up soon, so i thought i'd ask.  i'm not overly concerned about copy protection or anything like that - more just curious about an emerging technology and how it integrates with what i'm doing - if at all.

bob - yes, i may very well be confusing the two.  how do the PROs fingerprint a recording?  is this sort of similar to how CDDB knows what cd is in the player based on song lengths and number of tracks?

so to clarify - watermarking is more like copy protection and fingerprinting is more like a fingerprint right?   i guess i am asking more about fingerprinting.

thanks for the input!

[chrisj]

If you're not concerned with copy protection, the only thing I think you could be talking about (Bob may know more than me about what's out there, correct me if I'm wrong or have inadequate information) is ISRC codes.

These are associated with a label, but indy labels can get them just as easily. They are included in the subcode of the CD- meaning that unlike watermarking (my understanding of watermarking, anyway) they don't alter the sound at all. They're being carried on the part of the CD that carries track begin and end information, etc.

The reason you'd want to use ISRC codes is if you're getting radio airplay on automated stations- modern computerized stuff, but perhaps not quite as modern as the mp3 (mp2?) based computer-playlist stations which I heard were popping up. I think Europe and Asia were the places where you had to have ISRC codes to get airplay because otherwise it was too inconvenient to keep track of royalty data.

I'm talking out near the edges of 'stuff I heard somewhere' so please jump all over me if I have this wrong- but I think ISRC codes are what you're looking for.

[xonlocust]

is this ISRC stuff the same thing that enables a fancy car's radio to display the track name and band while it's playing?   i think i've seen that before in new cars and the big powerhouse clearchannel stations.  how is that data broadcast over analog airwaves?  and then so back to my original question - the ISRC info gets encoded as part of the mastering process? it's just a part that my ME probably does when im not paying attention? (i'm looking at you mastermind....)  all this time i'd just been listening at the sessions...

thanks for the input so far.

edit for other's benefit: i found this resource which sheds some light - http://www.ifpi.org/isrc/

and

Quote:

3.7.1. Compact Disc In the case of Compact Discs the ISRCs and other PQ-data are encoded in the disc sub-code (Q channel) in the disc mastering process. For this reason, ISRCs must be encoded for each track in the Pre-Master for CD. The ISRC codes, together with the Digital Copy Prohibited flag, and the relevant point of sale code, such as EAN/UPC should be inserted on the Pre-Master during the pre-mastering process from the original Master.

from: http://www.ifpi.org/isrc/isrc_handbook.html

and http://www.riaa.com/issues/audio/isrc_faq.asp

[Bob Olhsson]

CD-Text lets a player display information. The International Standard Recording Code (ISRC) is a unique serial number for each track that's used to pay royalties. Registration is free and artists get royalties.

[Ronny]

xonlocust wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 15:46

is this ISRC stuff the same thing that enables a fancy car's radio to display the track name and band while it's playing?   i think i've seen that before in new cars and the big powerhouse clearchannel stations.  how is that data broadcast over analog airwaves?  and then so back to my original question - the ISRC info gets encoded as part of the mastering process? it's just a part that my ME probably does when im not paying attention? (i'm looking at you mastermind....)  all this time i'd just been listening at the sessions... thanks for the input so far. edit for other's benefit: i found this resource which sheds some light - http://www.ifpi.org/isrc/ and Quote: 3.7.1. Compact Disc In the case of Compact Discs the ISRCs and other PQ-data are encoded in the disc sub-code (Q channel) in the disc mastering process. For this reason, ISRCs must be encoded for each track in the Pre-Master for CD. The ISRC codes, together with the Digital Copy Prohibited flag, and the relevant point of sale code, such as EAN/UPC should be inserted on the Pre-Master during the pre-mastering process from the original Master. from: http://www.ifpi.org/isrc/isrc_handbook.html and http://www.riaa.com/issues/audio/isrc_faq.asp

ISRC codes are not technically "a" watermark or copyright protection. They have nothing to do with display text for artist, cd title and song title in your car player that supports cd text. They are merely a set of numbers assigned by ifpi to be able to log air impressions. You can have one song that is the same and even the same artist, but a different recording, using different session musicians and they would need two separate ISRC codes, so an ISRC code really reflects the recording and not necessarily the song, although they are used to log songwriter and publsher mechanicals. You must supply the ME with the code for each song before he can encode it onto the PMCD, but you can also have the rep plant add them, some rep plants that is. Obtaining ISRC codes is the producers job and as Bob mentioned, they are free, you just have to register the recordings with ifpi. Paul McCartneys "Yesterday" which is one of the most recorded songs of all time, with over 200 acts recording, it would have a separate ISRC code for each version, well each version that came out after ISRC codes were established.

[dcollins]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 17:35

CD-Text lets a player display information. The International Standard Recording Code (ISRC) is a unique serial number for each track that's used to pay royalties. Registration is free and artists get royalties.

But is it CD text that goes out over the RDS/RBDS? Or something the station does?

An actual question!

DC

[mastermind]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 20:48

But is it CD text that goes out over the RDS/RBDS? Or something the station does?

Well, I know during the last local NPR membership drive, they were blasting out "Donate, blah, blah, blah...".... over the radio data system...

So it would seem the station can transmit what they wish - independant of the CD-Text.....

t

[mastermind]

xonlocust wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 14:46

is this ISRC stuff the same thing that enables a fancy car's radio to display the track name and band while it's playing?   i think i've seen that before in new cars and the big powerhouse clearchannel stations.  how is that data broadcast over analog airwaves?  and then so back to my original question - the ISRC info gets encoded as part of the mastering process? it's just a part that my ME probably does when im not paying attention? (i'm looking at you mastermind....)  all this time i'd just been listening at the sessions...

This is something we can surely discuss over shots of espresso at your next session.... however....

I do know that in Europe ISRC codes are used for accurate radio airplay reporting for public performance royalties - something we do not do here in the us (I can't remember exactly how we do it here).

Although the ISRC code is in the subcode data of the CD, it is not in the actual audio stream (so it can be easily eliminated in a digital copy process) so the audio is not actually "watermarked".

I have heard that if your CD is not ISRC encoded it's a big pain to get it played on the radio in Europe since they have to fill out manual forms in the absence of an ISRC code. I could be wrong on this though.

I do know that EMI does individually watermark important advance copies of a project. I have been told this watermark is indivual for each CD and will survive a digital copy. If the material were  "leaked" they would know the source.

In any case, I have no idea how they do this.. I've been told it's a bit pricey.

For manufactured advance copies, as well as some for sale product, they've been using the macrovision copy protection system... since this is all handled in the manufacturing stage I haven't really paid much attention to it....

t

[Bob Olhsson]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 20:48

...But is it CD text that goes out over the RDS/RBDS? Or something the station does? An actual question!

And a really good one!

A friend of mine uploads his radio show to XM and has to provide them with a log of ISRCs.

[Jerry Tubb]

A Watermark Story

A couple of years ago, we were mastering the promo disc for the new release from a legendary 70's rock band.

In addition to the normal voice interview, the label sent us a cd with the songs to use.  
The disc was marked with XCP... Extreme Copy Protection!
The disc wouldn't play or read in any "computer style" cd reader, for fear of being downloaded, including a Masterlink, a Tascam CD burner, and 3 different Apple G4 cd/dvd readers.  

Since this artist is famous for being particularly sensitive to sonic issues, we naturally wanted to play into Pro Tools digitally, so as a last resort, I tried an old Denon player with a dig out, which performed admirably.

The disc also displayed a warning that it was "Watermarked" with an individual name or serial number, and that if any of the songs found their way to any of the various internet download sites, the "Watermark" would reveal the source and result in legal action!

The disc also sported the new Supersized FBI warning, which I find to be "more than a little" over the top and negative, esp to legal users of discs.

Is this the type of "watermarking" you are refering to?

Has anyone had a similar experience?

Bob O...or Bob K.. have any more info on this process?

[xonlocust]

an update in case anyone cares - i found out that my label does have an ISRC already - which they retroactively assigned to our past record in order to put it on itunes. so from here it's just a matter of getting our sequencing done, and having him assign the new ISRC numbers to me, and me bringing that over to mastermind when we master.

i dont really care about the copy protetction stuff so much. i'm more concerned about PRO tracking and being more effective for this next record.  as an aside i just got my ascap statement yesterday - no plays in this tracking period! hell yeah - big fat goose egg on my statement.  that sampling method is crap for indie bands - we without a doubt had commercial radio play - granted not heavy rotation everywhere to make an impact, but there were 10-15 commercial stations (which of course we had to pay radio promo to get) and 40+ college stations playing our stuff when the last record came out. fuck the music business.  i'm sure my story is old and not unique.

[Ronny]

xonlocust wrote on Tue, 12 April 2005 12:14

an update in case anyone cares - i found out that my label does have an ISRC already - which they retroactively assigned to our past record in order to put it on itunes. so from here it's just a matter of getting our sequencing done, and having him assign the new ISRC numbers to me, and me bringing that over to mastermind when we master. i dont really care about the copy protetction stuff so much. i'm more concerned about PRO tracking and being more effective for this next record.  as an aside i just got my ascap statement yesterday - no plays in this tracking period! hell yeah - big fat goose egg on my statement.  that sampling method is crap for indie bands - we without a doubt had commercial radio play - granted not heavy rotation everywhere to make an impact, but there were 10-15 commercial stations (which of course we had to pay radio promo to get) and 40+ college stations playing our stuff when the last record came out. fuck the music business.  i'm sure my story is old and not unique.

Isn't there some ASCAP fine print where it states that payments are divvy'd on ladder percentage of plays and sales. Good for Britney and Madonna, but not so hot for indie area bands. BMI is another option, they'll even get royalty checks from Russia, if you have airplay over there.  

[Bob Olhsson]

It's all rapidly changing. ASCAP is deploying a fingerprinting system that logs all airplay in certain markets.

If you know for sure that you've had REAL airplay and weren't just tacked on to a college station's playlist as a "favor" to a promotion person, I'd get hold of ASCAP pronto. It could well be that you need to submit your CD to them in order for it to get picked up by the system.