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[kohrobby]

i've recorded a whole album to 1/2 inch 16 track and have started mixing, and tonight i've started having a progressive loss of hi-end. cymbals are completely phasing out. i have cleaned the heads several times and have been doing so throughout the session. this is completely freaking me out as it seems to be getting worse.....please advise.

[j.hall]

1/2" 16 track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW, those are narrow track widths!!!!

if you aren't pulling gobs of gunk off the heads when you clean the deck then you can probably stop cleaning it every few hours and just clean it before use and sometime in the middle of the session.

i'd check the alignment of the deck.

do you have noise reduction on this deck?  check to see if it's engaged in the proper mode.

[bblackwood]

Demagged recently?

Check alignment for drift?

[malice]

could be a lot of things

cleaning, demag, bad allign.

Does it react the same wherever you are in the tape ( beguining or end of tape ) ?

Cause it can be a cabstan tension problem as well

malice

[j.hall]

capstan tension problem?

i'd think that would effect speed more then frequency response.

granted speed and frequencies are tied together, but wouldn't he notice a dip in tape speed first?

i'm honestly asking, not trying to be argumentative.

while cleaning the deck, are you using a good rubber cleaner on the pinch roller.

i've seen MANY nasty pinch rollers that caused all sorts of problems (related to speed) in my short time dealing with tape decks.

[malice]

Dear Jerry,

the reason I raised this problem is that I recently had the case with an MCI 2 track machine. As soon as the tape was reaching the end, the capstan couldn't tie the tape properly against the heads causing slight loss in hi frequencies...

a rather odd problem, but I did had this problem as I describe it to you.

And the speed was ok

I'm not trying to start an argument here Jerry

I'm not used to your place, it would be bad form from me to tell lies the first post I make


best

malice

[j.hall]

malice wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 08:44

Dear Jerry,

jerry springer?

Quote:

the reason I raised this problem is that I recently had the case with an MCI 2 track machine. As soon as the tape was reaching the end, the capstan couldn't tie the tape properly against the heads causing slight loss in hi frequencies...

weird.  i've had similar problems with MCI decks that had horribly dirty capstans and pinch roller, but my problem was tape slipping and the machine going totally crazy.

Quote:

a rather odd problem, but I did had this problem as I describe it to you.

i don't doubt you.

i've had MCI's do the weirdest things like, drop out of record in the middle of a punch and go to some random locate point and start playing.

i've had them:
- not punch in on tracks i have armed
- not toggle between live signal and recorded
- hit the stop button and have the deck go into rewind
- had it locate 1 second behind the forward 1 second ahead over and over but never stop on the actual locate point.

Quote:

I'm not used to your place, it would be bad form from me to tell lies the first post I make

well, you are french.......................................

[kohrobby]

thanks fellas, i'm about to demag again, haven't done that in the last 10 hours or so on the machine. captan tension sounds like it could be the culprit whereas sometimes afters engaging "stop" the tape kind of rolls into a slow rolling neutral. doesn't all the time. but maybe twice a session. capstan related, yes?

and yes, it is doing this (as far as i've checked) just on the hi-end of this song, about 2/3 thru on the tape.

thanks again!

[floodstage]

kohrobby wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 10:35

.....<snip> it is doing this (as far as i've checked) just on the hi-end of this song, about 2/3 thru on the tape.....

Hope you have a backup.  Sounds like the tape itself has a problem

[malice]

j.hall wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 16:18

malice wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 08:44 Dear Jerry, jerry springer?

LMFBO


Why on Earth did I assume "J." is standing for Jerry ????

I realise my mistake, sorry about that

Weird

But as you said : I'm french  


malice

PS: kohrobb, yes, that sounds like the problem I had ...btw tension related stuff is not easy to handle by yourself, you need special tools for that so my advice would be to ask a proper tech to check on that

[j.hall]

malice wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 09:44

Why on Earth did I assume "J." is standing for Jerry ????

it stands for Jason.  

Quote:

I realise my mistake, sorry about that

naw, i thought it was funny.  no appologies.

Quote:

But as you said : I'm french

FREAK................hahahahahaha

Quote:

PS: kohrobb, yes, that sounds like the problem I had ...btw tension related stuff is not easy to handle by yourself, you need special tools for that so my advice would be to ask a proper tech to check on that

i'm still not convinced the issue is with the capstan.  but i totally agree with malice.  throw up the white flag and call a tech in there to set that deck up properly and check your capstan/pinch roller tension.

demag every 10 hours???????????????????????????

i had a tech bring over some crazy contraption that reads magnetic levels.  we hadn't demagged the MCI in MONTHS.  and there was hardly any trace of the metal parts holding a magnetic charge.

i demag a couple times a year, maybe i'm crazy, but i've never once had a problem with any of the decks i've used in this particular topic.

[NelsonL]

malice wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 07:44

j.hall wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 16:18 malice wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 08:44 Dear Jerry, jerry springer? LMFBO Why on Earth did I assume "J." is standing for Jerry ???? I realise my mistake, sorry about that Weird

As in Jerry Hall, former wife of Mick Jagger?

[bblackwood]

rattleyour wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 10:54

As in Jerry Hall, former wife of Mick Jagger?

That was before 'his' surgery...

[cgc]

Quote:

demag every 10 hours???????????????????????????

As I recall, doing demag improperly is worse than not doing it at all.  Performing this as some sort of diurnal ritual probably increases the chance of something going wrong.

[kohrobby]

 yeah, not to say that i DO demag every 10 hours, i'm just sayin that i demagged just prior to starting the session. prolly have put roughly 10 hours on the machine since. machine was demagged @ four months prior.

yeah, as far as any alignment issues, i know barely enough to be dangerous. very. so if i don't get any in house resolution, i'll get out the tech checkbook....

[j.hall]

cgc wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 11:39

As I recall, doing demag improperly is worse than not doing it at all.  Performing this as some sort of diurnal ritual probably increases the chance of something going wrong.

yeah, especially if the tape deck is still powered on when the demagger is running.

and especially if the reel of tape is still on the machine.

one lesson i learned a while back

while moving away from the deck slowly i always have a habit of placing the degauser behind my back after i'm a good 15' away.  not like my body blocks anything.  but anyway, i left my wallet in my pocket this time.  needless to say, i was having every credit card, ATM card, etc... replaced the next week.

[thedoc]

Check for reel tensions and tape path.  If the supply reel holdback tension is too great, it can fight the capstan, thereby affecting tape path if things are not physically aligned perfectly.  Try (with a test tape) moving the tape across the playback head with your finger as the machine is playing back 10k and see if you can improve the hi freq response.  If you can, you have a path problem.

Is playback from the repro head and the sync head significantly different?  That would be a clue although some machines have degraded hi freq response in sync due to head design.

[malice]

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 18:27

rattleyour wrote on Wed, 06 April 2005 10:54 As in Jerry Hall, former wife of Mick Jagger? That was before 'his' surgery...

Woooah,


I just realise what led me into calling Jason : Jerry ...

I'm such an idiot

I mean it

lmfbo

malice

[bushwick]

Hi-

I am in the middle of stems, can't rap too long...

I think you have a magnetism problem.

There have been some helpful hints here but in case they were vague:

1) TAKE YOUR SESSION OFF OF THE DECK!!!!

2) Record something on to another piece of tape, scrap if you have it, 10khz will work well and note on the meters of the recorder where they are. For this it is sound to record at 0vu. Record at least two minutes of this so you have enough to experiment with (turn your monitors down).

3) Rewind the recorded section and play it back and see if the material is quieter in sync or repro.

4) With the tape playing push the tape agains the head a little harder by pressing into the moving tape with your finger next to where it hits the head, but not on the head. See if that causes the high end to come back. Like previously mentioned, that would signal a tape path issue.

5) If this is not changing it for the better play the tape over and over where you have recorded your 10khz tone about ten times and see if you are getting loss in level on the vu meters. If you are, you almost certainly have a magnetism problem.

6) If that is the case, very serisouly learn how to demag your machine. A magnetized tape path will cause high end loss much more prominently than mid and lower frequencies. What would also lead me to believe this is your problem is that you complain of phasy souding high end. If you demag improperly, you are going to actually magnetize one spot on some part you have tried to demagnetized and if that part is a rotating part, as that part rotates past a section of tape the amount that it removes signal it removes will vary with how strong the magnetism of the part is.

If you picture rotating parts from the top down and assume 12 o'clock is magnetized, as the part spins around (like an idler) it will suck high end whenever the 12 o'clock makes contact with the tape, with less damage occuring as you approach and as you pass 12 0'clock.

Also, you do not need to move the demagnetizer more than a few feet away while you are slowly back the demagger off the machine. For whomever that was that moves 15 feet away. Also, when demagging, most of your demagging happens logarithmically as you close in the metal parts. SO, back away verrrry slowly for the first inch or so as you waive the demagger from side to side.

Get yourself an "Annis Han'D'Mag". They are the best.

Cheers and good luck,
josh

[scott oliphant]

this may be too obvious, but is there any chance that it could be phasing in the mics you used on the cymbals themselves not the deck? I was having some weird issues in a session a while back and it was one of my sm81's I was using as drum overheads. I've never seen a 1/2 16 track, I've got a 1/2 8 track and thought I had small track widths =) I wonder what the bleedthrough is like on 1/2 16. good luck
scott

[kohrobby]

fellas, been meaning to get back in here to thank you all for the input and suggestions. just been busy mixing since i last posted. so that's a good sign, right? i demagged again in desperation, and voila! fixed it right up.

i really appreciate the demagging tips, as i have been a bit helter skelter in technique in comparison to doing it properly.

thanks again!