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[Yiannis]

Hi guys!

My config is Hedd 192 SPDIF to 2408 SPDIF
I am trying to sync (slave) a 2408mk1 to Hedd(master) via wordclock.

2408 in HEDD out

I used to sync via SPDIF but lately I have problems and I am trying wordclock.
when I am recording a stereo track I hear a lot of  noise on one side!!
If I don't use wordclock its ok but then there is no sync!

What is going please?I am getting crazy!!

Thank you
Yiannis

PS:There is no signal in the analog in of Hedd
 
   

[malice]

Hearing a lot of noise in one side sounds like bad word clock problem to my ears.

If you use proper SPDIF cable, that is the way to go. (no BNC cable needed)

The 2408 is supposed to lock well via spdif (that carries wordclock fine)

however...

I did had problems with 2408 MK1 and MK2 regarding external wordclocking via spdif.

A problem that was solved when I used 192HD and 2408 MK3.

I understand this is not good newz to you, sorry ...


malice

[Yiannis]

Hi Malice,

I am using Belden 110ohms 2f long cable.

SPDIF was fine...but something happend and when I am recording syncro  just goes away!
I have to put motu to internal sync and then SPDIF again to go on.

Something I don't understand,Is  clocking critical only when tracking or on playback too?

Yiannis

[bobkatz]

Yiannis wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 09:21

Hi guys! My config is Hedd 192 SPDIF to 2408 SPDIF I am trying to sync (slave) a 2408mk1 to Hedd(master) via wordclock. 2408 in HEDD out I used to sync via SPDIF but lately I have problems and I am trying wordclock. when I am recording a stereo track I hear a lot of  noise on one side!! If I don't use wordclock its ok but then there is no sync!

To the best of my knowledge, the wordclock out of the HEDD is tied to the A/D converter's output... it is not tied to the digital in or out ports. In other words, even if the HEDD is set to SPDIF (or AES) in, its wordclock out is slaved to its A/D converter, which could be on internal sync, so it won't be related at all.

This is what I remember, assuming my memory hasn't failed.

There should be no need to use wordclock in a system using SPDIF in a chain. What exactly is your chain, where is your master clock... many problems of this type turn out to be clock loops or "no master" situations.

BK

[Yiannis]

Bob,
thank you also for your reply!

1)My chain is   HEDD SPDIF out >> MOTU 2408 SPDIF in.
When I am recording I have HEDD's proccess to analog 24bits and MOTU clock to SPDIF.

2)MOTU 2408 SPDIF out >> HEDD SPDIF in
When I playback i have HEDD proccess to digital and MOTU clock internal.

You said that there is not need for Wclock in my chain!
So whatever I use, the depth and the image of my audio gonna be the same?

Thank you
Yiannis

[bobkatz]

Yiannis wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 12:45

Bob, thank you also for your reply! 1)My chain is   HEDD SPDIF out >> MOTU 2408 SPDIF in. When I am recording I have HEDD's proccess to analog 24bits and MOTU clock to SPDIF. 2)MOTU 2408 SPDIF out >> HEDD SPDIF in When I playback i have HEDD proccess to digital and MOTU clock internal. You said that there is not need for Wclock in my chain! So whatever I use, the depth and the image of my audio gonna be the same? Thank you Yiannis

No need for wordclock, and in addition, the HEDD's wordclock is not related to its SPDIF anyway. Motu must be running on internal clock in this case, or slaved to some disinterested clock. And since you are processing digitally with no converters in between, the depth and image of your audio WILL be the same. If you hear a difference depending on the clocking, fire the DAC you're using for monitoring!

Best wishes,


Bob

[malice]

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 22:16

Motu must be running on internal clock in this case, or slaved to some disinterested clock.

I don't get it.

Couldn't he leave the Hedd as master ????

I'm doing this with the Lavry I have, and clock the whole DAW permanently thru AES  to it.

malice

[Yiannis]

"If you hear a difference depending on the clocking, fire the DAC you're using for monitoring!"

But ...its the HEDD Bob!

If I understand well I should use wordclock only if I go in HEDD analog and go out analog into  another  digital device?

I have try to make MOTU master and HEDD slave via wordclock and its ok!!

I can't make it the other way because there is always noise in SPDIF in2(only...why?)
Motu claims that it should work both ways!!
Also MOTU says that if 2408 can't lock to some clock there might be some noise!
I have the noise but also when I change rate in HEDD, MOTU changes too!Isn't that clock locking?

Greedings
Yiannis

[bobkatz]

malice wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 01:32

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 03 April 2005 22:16 Motu must be running on internal clock in this case, or slaved to some disinterested clock. I don't get it. Couldn't he leave the Hedd as master ???? I'm doing this with the Lavry I have, and clock the whole DAW permanently thru AES  to it. malice

Ah yes...

As long as you can trace a straight path from a master clock through to an endpoint with no accidental circular loop, anything legitimate is game!

For example, the TC Electronic Finalizer is a processor with options where it can generate a master clock and still receive digital audio on its input. In that case, the clock can be in the middle of your chain yet still be legitimate.

When used as a digital-to-digital processor, the HEDD does not have such an option like the TC. Most digital-to-digital processors do not have any crystal clocks in them at all. HOWEVER, the HEDD has a crystal oscillator, and it can be used as a master clock for your DAW similarly to how you use your Lavry A/D, except you must use the HEDD's WC out connector for this purpose. Then you can simultaneously and independently use the HEDD as a D-D processor. One section has nothing to do with the other when the HEDD is set to the "Digital" position.

Cool?

BK

[bobkatz]

Yiannis wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 05:27

"If you hear a difference depending on the clocking, fire the DAC you're using for monitoring!" But ...its the HEDD Bob! If I understand well I should use wordclock only if I go in HEDD analog and go out analog into  another  digital device? I have try to make MOTU master and HEDD slave via wordclock and its ok!! I can't make it the other way because there is always noise in SPDIF in2(only...why?) Motu claims that it should work both ways!! Also MOTU says that if 2408 can't lock to some clock there might be some noise! I have the noise but also when I change rate in HEDD, MOTU changes too!Isn't that clock locking? Greedings Yiannis

Yiannis, it sounds like you've got a clock loop...  when using the HEDD as a digital to digital processor. The WORDCLOCK input of the HEDD DOES NOT work in digital-processing mode. The WORDCLOCK input of the HEDD ONLY controls the A/D converter.

Please give us a diagram of how you have your studio patched. Just include the HEDD and the DAW for now. And what position do you have the function knob set for on your HEDD? I assume for this discussion you are NOT doing any external analog processing.

BK

[Yiannis]

Bob.
here is how  my config is

Hope it helps

Thank you
Yiannis

[bobkatz]

Well the following new information changes everything:

By the way, guys, Dave Hill just told me today that a recent revision to the firmware of the HEDD has changed its configuration.

It is now possible to make it be the master clock even in a D-D situation, exactly as could the Finalizer. You have to set it to "24 bit", but this is just a mode switch in lieu of another label on the front panel. I'm not sure how you turn the mode on or off, to be honest as I do not have this revision nor do I need it.

Dave did it so that people could patch the HEDD in a digital insert without getting confused over clock loops or losing lock...  I guess that would be people who do not have DAWs that can run internal clock, whoever that might be.

BK

[malice]

bobkatz wrote on Tue, 05 April 2005 23:30

Ah yes... As long as you can trace a straight path from a master clock through to an endpoint with no accidental circular loop, anything legitimate is game! For example, the TC Electronic Finalizer is a processor with options where it can generate a master clock and still receive digital audio on its input. In that case, the clock can be in the middle of your chain yet still be legitimate. When used as a digital-to-digital processor, the HEDD does not have such an option like the TC. Most digital-to-digital processors do not have any crystal clocks in them at all. HOWEVER, the HEDD has a crystal oscillator, and it can be used as a master clock for your DAW similarly to how you use your Lavry A/D, except you must use the HEDD's WC out connector for this purpose. Then you can simultaneously and independently use the HEDD as a D-D processor. One section has nothing to do with the other when the HEDD is set to the "Digital" position. Cool? BK

Hell yeah I'm cool

I get it now Bob

malice

[Yiannis]

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 07 April 2005 23:25

Well the following new information changes everything: By the way, guys, Dave Hill just told me today that a recent revision to the firmware of the HEDD has changed its configuration. It is now possible to make it be the master clock even in a D-D situation, exactly as could the Finalizer. You have to set it to "24 bit", but this is just a mode switch in lieu of another label on the front panel. I'm not sure how you turn the mode on or off, to be honest as I do not have this revision nor do I need it. Dave did it so that people could patch the HEDD in a digital insert without getting confused over clock loops or losing lock...  I guess that would be people who do not have DAWs that can run internal clock, whoever that might be. BK

Well what about my config Bob?

Is something wrong with it?

Greetings
Yiannis

[bobkatz]

Yiannis wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 06:04

bobkatz wrote on Thu, 07 April 2005 23:25 Well the following new information changes everything: By the way, guys, Dave Hill just told me today that a recent revision to the firmware of the HEDD has changed its configuration. It is now possible to make it be the master clock even in a D-D situation, exactly as could the Finalizer. You have to set it to "24 bit", but this is just a mode switch in lieu of another label on the front panel. I'm not sure how you turn the mode on or off, to be honest as I do not have this revision nor do I need it. Dave did it so that people could patch the HEDD in a digital insert without getting confused over clock loops or losing lock...  I guess that would be people who do not have DAWs that can run internal clock, whoever that might be. BK Well what about my config Bob? Is something wrong with it? Greetings Yiannis

I'm sorry, Yiannis, I didn't have time to study your config... I'm hoping also that with the information that has been supplied in this thread, you personally will be able to study your config and determine if there is:


signal starts at a master clock, goes through a series of devices which are slaved, and reaches an end, is not broken by any other master clock.

But I must confess I did not look at your diagram... send me a private message with the URL of your diagram and I'll try to look at it. But the thing is with this new model of HEDD and its options that I am not familiar with, it could confuse the issue.

You need to determine if the HEDD is in a mode which is creating a master clock on its own. This is VERY easy to do. Just leave nothing on its input, and feed its output to, say, a DAT machine or anything else that can slave lock, and see if the slave is seeing a clock. It's that simple...  you have to learn how to debug your system yourself.