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[Klaus Heyne]

doughiggins wrote on Wed, 01 March 2006 14:20

Has anyone yet attempted any more comparisons outside of quite popular companies such as belden, mogami, gotham, canare. Any Zaolla or Cardas users?

Cardas:
I'll have to pass (I am still working towards my first $milliion)
Maybe David Bock who is a lot closer to George Cardas, has some insight to share?

Zaolla:
I tested their XLR-terminated mic/preamp cable on 6-18-04.
From my notes: Physically very thick cable, black anodized Neutric connectors w/ gold pins, very thick conductors (2 + shield) No connector-to-ground termination on either end.
Sound: robust lower mids, very hard and dry upper mids, overly bright treble (spitty, sibilant), lack of smooth transitions between frequency bands, somewhat fatiguing during long listening sessions. Congestion in the 5-7k range (hence the sibilance)

[acorec]

A good test is:

Build some easy standard cables. Have 1 guy (or gal) mark them and only he-she knows what brand it is.

Systematically ship these cables around in a circle (how many?) and have each hook these cables to THEIR system.

Evaluate.

Write a detailed report.

When all cables are back where they started, compile and look at the results.

IF a cable is REALLY better, all those reports should point to the marked number and the best sounding cable wins.

Sell all cables on eBay as historical hardware for collectors.  

[Klaus Heyne]

The devil is in the detail:
You cannot remove enough identifers from cables before you send them out, to make them unrecognizable.
Then kicks in the psychology: If I like a certain cable a priori, I will like the cable you send me too, as soon as I figured out what brand/type it is.

[doughiggins]

I understand about making the psuedo blind test...however (psychological issues aside)I wonder if you are hearing the full potential and details of the different cables if you already have "lower quality/band limiting" cables in the path/chain.  

[Klaus Heyne]

doughiggins wrote on Thu, 09 March 2006 20:59

I wonder if you are hearing the full potential and details of the different cables if you already have "lower quality/band limiting" cables in the path/chain.

...Then it's obviously a chain of diminishing returns.

The best situation would be to either have all cables (if you must use more than one) of the same kind, or, better, to set up a listening situation with only one cable.

You can do the latter when you test a cable with a phantom-powered mic (I have not found that the dc on the cable offsets the audio)

[bigaudioblowhard]

I recently dopped in on a tracking session and found my friend had rented a bunch of very cool old Neve and Quad Eight mic pres. But they were all stacked in the control room and every mic was at the end of at least 50 feet of cable.

I think THE BEST MIC CABLE is a SHORT MIC CABLE.

And I'm afraid thats the ONLY intelligent thing I can say about mic cables.

bab

[thinman]

[quote title=Klaus Heyne wrote on Fri, 10 March 2006 07:18]

doughiggins wrote on Thu, 09 March 2006 20:59

The best situation would be to...have all cables

And so the struggle continues.

[2db]

How would these specs match up to what would be considered a great mic cable.

Poor
Average
Good
Great

Conductor: 24 AWG, (7/32) bare annealed copper conductors with 24 AWG copper drain wire
Shield: 100% Aluminum/polyester tape
Lead and Cadmium Free PVC outer jacket - an environmentally responsible product! (That's very important to us!)
Conductor DC Resistance: 24.5-ohms/1000 ft.
Nominal Capacitance: less than 25 pF/ft. between conductors.
Characteristic Impedance: 60-ohm nominal

Thanks
Jim Easton

[Klaus Heyne]

2db wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 09:04

How would these specs match up to what would be considered a great mic cable.

Who knows? I wish there was some way to at least find cable finalists from looking at specs. But, beyond avoidind cables with gross errors in capacitance/resistance, I have not yet found the magic spec that would at least make me order a sample from a  manufacturer.

[squeegybug]

Here's how I did it recently.  Pretty basic but worked for me.
I bought or built one of each of these:

Belden 1266A Foil Shield
Belden 89207 Plenum (Teflon insulation and jacket)
BLUE Blueberry
Canare L-2T2S
Canare L-4E6S Quad
DiMarzio Braided Jacket
Gotham GAC-3
Gotham GAC-4 Quad
Gotham GAC-2AES 110 ohm AES
Mogami W2549
Mogami W2534 Quad
Mogami W3080 110 ohm AES
Planet Waves

All were 20 feet long.  Connectors were XLR, and all were Neutrik silver except for Planet Waves and BLUE.

I connected each cable one at a time to a DA/AD loop using Lavry Blue 4496.  I ran mono program material through this loop and recorded each track, then just did blind switching comparing A-B, A-C, A-D, etc.  Then went to B-C, B-D, B-E, and so on until all combinations had been compared to each other.  Basic comparisons, just listening for preferences using my own familiar recordings of various voices and styles, and some acoustic instruments.  There was very little audible difference from this test, but I did pick general categories of "good" vs "not quite so good".  To me, good = clarity and detail and full bass.  Bad = soft and dull or harsh.

Next I connected a Y-splitter to a Sony C48 microphone running on battery power.  I ran cable A and cable B to two matched channels of a Gordon preamp.  Then each channel to the converter using a short piece of Belden 89207.  Since I had already found there was not a huge difference in the line level signals, and the Belden had performed well, this seemed reasonable to me.

I sang and played and recorded both channels simultaneously.  Then I played the samples back and again used blind A-B comparison to simply pick which I preferred.  Whichever won was left connected, and the next candidate was plugged in to compete.

I repeated the same songs, and selected the choice from this next comparison.  And so on.

After all that I had one clear winner:  Belden 89207.  It easily outperformed every other cable, for my preferences of open, strong tone.

I had picked four runners up, so I set those up in the rotating live comparisons and picked which I preferred from the batch.  After I selected the best from this second round, I connected it back against the 89207 to make sure of my first opinion.  I reversed the Y-connections and the preamp channels and tried again.  The Belden again was by far the best.

I ranked these four alternates in this order:
1. Gotham GAC-2AES 110 ohm AES
2. Gotham GAC-3
3. Mogami W3080 110 ohm AES
4. Canare L-2T2S

These all had a pleasant sound, maybe a little mellow, but not too harsh or dull.

In my opinion none of the others were anything special, many sounded soft and cloudy, and the bass often seemed subdued with a slow attack.

So, a tedious routine, but I only had to do it this one time and now I know.  Would the results be different if I didn't use the splitter, or if I used another mic, or different preamp, or...?  I don't know, but the Belden was so obviously better than the others that I'd be surprised if there was a huge variation from using some different methods.  I spent about $270 on the pre-made cables, mostly at Redco.  They don't stock 89207 though, I got a bulk quantity of that from Anixter and assembled my own.  Redco has an excellent realtime cable builder program that made it easy to order these combinations, and they did great fast work.  I'll just sell these cables for a discount to someone else who might want to compare the differences.

I was hoping something besides the 89207 would win, because this is very tough, stiff, permanent installation cable that is difficult to work with.  It's hard to prep and it doesn't coil well, and can pull microphones around in their mounts if not routed properly.  But it is cheap and sounds great so that's what I'm using.

Steve

[Klaus Heyne]

Congratulations!
You did what you needed to do to feel secure about your cable choices, and won't ever have to ask others to pre-digest your choices.

I cannot find fault with your methodology either, except the small lenght of "contaminant" cable between pre and converter.
But, as far as your specific applications and equipment are concerned, you are done for now.

[T.RayBullard]

 Interesting.

[Klaus Heyne]

I applaud your openness to new things, and your willingness to let old beliefs go when appropriate (you can actually drop disparaging terms like "audiofool ramblings"- they don't add anything to your credibility.)

Here is where I think your test setup had a fatal flaw which may or may not lead you to better mic cables: You miced a loudspeaker.  

All you may actually have done in your selection of "best" cable, and your (as I find premature) conclusion that 'pure silver' sounds best, was to to find a cable which may have compensated best for defects in the loudspeakers' performance, a cable which may or may not be useful outside of this specific task.

Again, your specific test set up is not designed not lead you conclusively to a better performing mic cable. For that test, you will have to mic an original acoustic source like Thomas Quasthoff or a more affordable facsimile, in your studio, and record him live.

The only statement I feel you could confidently make about yoiur test is this:
"When micing source material played through my B&W speakers with my DPA 4003 mics, my friend's home made cables sounded best among the three cables I tested"

Generalities beyond that statement are less credible.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Kind regards,

[Jim Williams]

T.RayBullard wrote on Tue, 28 March 2006 13:07

... The set that really grabbed me was the pair of cables that my friend made. Silver Coated copper, Teflon Jacket. I dont know why it is that way, but the transient speed, high/mid detail and tight focused bass was much better than the previous two. Ive read since then that silver is a great conductor of sound, maybe that explains it?? ...I DO notice a difference between pure copper and silver coated copper. I use all of the latter in my setup now, and dont see myself going back to plain copper at all. Anyone want to tell me why silver sounds better?

Here are two possibilities:
First, silver is the best electrical conductor. Many think gold is, but it's fourth on the list. Silver, copper, platinum, gold are the order of conductivity.

Now silver is 7% more conductive than copper, does that mean you hear 7% more music?

Don't ignore the insulation. Teflon is inert. Mylar and other soft plastics are not. This is why [teflon] is put into your body during surgery as it won't react chemically.

Teflon has been proven to be the best insulator for wire. That's why RF cables use it. Other materials react with electron flow, especially at high frequencies.

A 3-braid of military surplus silver/teflon 20 awg wire sounds better than Kimber's PBJ teflon/copper wire that sells for $4 per foot. Try it yourself and see.

I've been using silver/teflon wire in all my work for at least the last 20 years. Glad to see some of you coming around...

[Lynn Fuston]

Jim Williams wrote on Wed, 29 March 2006 09:18

A 3-braid of military surplus silver/teflon 20 awg wire sounds better than Kimber's PBJ teflon/copper wire that sells for $4 per foot. Try it yourself and see.

Where do you find this cable? I'd be interested in trying this test myself.