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Author Topic: SPDIF to AES?  (Read 1763 times)

Barkley McKay

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SPDIF to AES?
« on: March 24, 2005, 03:55:46 AM »

Hi List,

I would like to connect a TC Electronic M1 XL to the AES/EBU I/O of a Sony DMX R10O, to avoid the AD/DA latency. The TC is SPDIF only. I assume this is possible?

Any advice would be most welcome!

tia

Barkley Mckay
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JamSync

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2005, 08:39:55 AM »

Barkley McKay wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 08:55

Hi List,

I would like to connect a TC Electronic M1 XL to the AES/EBU I/O of a Sony DMX R10O, to avoid the AD/DA latency. The TC is SPDIF only. I assume this is possible?

Any advice would be most welcome!

tia

Barkley Mckay



The best way to do this is with a transformer. Check out the Neutrik NADITBNC-FX transformers. They have XLR on one side and BNC on the other. If your SPDIF is RCA coax, you can get a BNC to RCA adapter.

crm0922

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2005, 08:43:29 AM »

JamSync wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 08:39

Barkley McKay wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 08:55

Hi List,

I would like to connect a TC Electronic M1 XL to the AES/EBU I/O of a Sony DMX R10O, to avoid the AD/DA latency. The TC is SPDIF only. I assume this is possible?

Any advice would be most welcome!

tia

Barkley Mckay



The best way to do this is with a transformer. Check out the Neutrik NADITBNC-FX transformers. They have XLR on one side and BNC on the other. If your SPDIF is RCA coax, you can get a BNC to RCA adapter.


http://www.mercenary.com/neditr.html

Chris
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Wire

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2005, 01:31:51 AM »

Those will NOT work.  There was just a thread about this on the Tape Op board.  

The adapters are not signal converters.  They just take a AES XLR 110 ohm and change it to BNC 75 ohm so you can run AES over coax.  

The signal needs to be converted from one standard to the other.  With a box such as the FCN-1 seen here http://digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pa geadder_page_id=16/

There are other boxes as well.
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bobkatz

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2005, 08:22:18 AM »

wire wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 01:31

Those will NOT work.  There was just a thread about this on the Tape Op board.  

The adapters are not signal converters.  They just take a AES XLR 110 ohm and change it to BNC 75 ohm so you can run AES over coax.  

The signal needs to be converted from one standard to the other.  With a box such as the FCN-1 seen here  http://digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pa geadder_page_id=16/

There are other boxes as well.



Actually, these "passive" converters may very well do the job. There are not many FCN-1's left in stock...  I only sell about one a year, especially since these days I try to discourage people from buying them UNLESS they have a specific problem that only the FCN-1 or a similar format converter can handle.

First of all, it's important to separate the "protocol" from the cable issue. It's possible to send a consumer protocol over a "professional" line, and vice versa. It's possible to send a professional protocol over an optical or Toslink line as well. If the receving device (tape recorder or DAW) ignores the channel status bits coming in, then it won't matter if it's coming in on an XLR, RCA, or lightpipe connector.

So, in that respect, if you aren't feeding a DAT machine, and you're not worried about jitter (which is not an issue in digital transfers), and you only have a short cable, then a simple adapter between RCA and XLR will do the trick. Even though the impedances are not matched or the levels are not officially "correct". The reason is that for many years now, all the typical receivers can receive voltages from as low as 200 mv to as high in some cases as 7 volts, with no trouble.

There are still some features that you may need and won't get with a simple passive adapter:

1) Optimum signal transfer from matched impedance and proper levels over a long line.

2) Distribution amplifier features, so you can feed several loads of different types at once.

Unfortunately, the FCN-1 also contains a PLL so the jitter on its output may be greater than what's coming in, but that depends on how high the source jitter is, as there is some jitter reduction capability in every PLL.

In cases where people are trying to feed SPDIF over a long line, or an AES long line into an SPDIF receiver with the most optimum signal transfer and fewest reflections, I usually recommend a transformer such as a Neutrik or Canare, or in some cases a simple resistor network will suffice.

The number of receiving devices that actually discriminate between the professional and consumer status bits are very very few nowadays, mostly old DAT machines.
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JamSync

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2005, 01:15:36 PM »

wire wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 06:31

Those will NOT work.  There was just a thread about this on the Tape Op board.  

The adapters are not signal converters.  They just take a AES XLR 110 ohm and change it to BNC 75 ohm so you can run AES over coax.  

The signal needs to be converted from one standard to the other.  With a box such as the FCN-1 seen here   http://digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pa geadder_page_id=16/

There are other boxes as well.



As Bob knows, we have several of his boxes and I use them for situations where the target instrument cares about the flag. However, there are a lot of devices that do not care and will just take the signal if it's properly transformed. You're right, though, that you can get in trouble just using transformers, but it's been rare in our experience. One thing to watch out for is trying to pass DTS and Dolby Digital through one of these boxes. You have to set the data flag or you'll just get noise.

Ronny

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2005, 06:10:17 AM »

Barkley McKay wrote on Thu, 24 March 2005 03:55

Hi List,

I would like to connect a TC Electronic M1 XL to the AES/EBU I/O of a Sony DMX R10O, to avoid the AD/DA latency. The TC is SPDIF only. I assume this is possible?

Any advice would be most welcome!

tia

Barkley Mckay



Yes, it's possible and without a transformer or a a 6dB attenuator, with most devices these days. If the run is short, simply jump the hot and cold on the XLR side with a short 3/8's inch wire when going from SPdif to AES3 and going from AES to SPdif, simply run pin 2 hot to rca center and pin 3 to rca ground without the float jumper. Impedance between 110 and 75 ohm is not important on very short cables. AES3 uses 110 ohm "recommendation" cables, AES3id, is 75 ohm, just like rca SPdif 75 ohm. The status bit that BK is referring to, is mostly on consumer SPdif and many pro devices don't carry the status bit or can null it and get full audio signal. The fastest and cheapest way to find out if your devices will allow my suggestion, is to mod a cable with XLR on one end and rca coax on the other as to my specifications. You have a 95% chance that it will work just fine without having to worry about transformers or attenuation pads and can just make up the 6dB drop with the gain on the receiving device. You'll only get the gain drop going from AES to SPdif, IIRC and not the other way.
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Barkley McKay

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Re: SPDIF to AES?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2005, 05:40:18 PM »


Thank you  to all for the informed replies!

I was curious as to the response, as I appeared to successfully (almost!) connect the AES inputs and outputs of an old Fostex D5 dat machine to a mark1 MOTU 828 SPDIF a couple of years ago, to see if it worked and to use the meters as reference.
When passing audio out of the DAW thru the D5 as a mix, and then panning a signal hard left or right from within the DAW, I noticed that there was always a remenant of the signal on the opposite side, yet if passed thru the 828 outputs this was not the case. So it seemed to have issues, and I suspected it may be due to the incompatability of the connections, or the D/A conversion of the D5 itself.

What would constitute a reasonable cable length in the case of FX units like the TC electronic?
thanks

Barkley Mckay
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