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Author Topic: Nashville Vocals  (Read 27020 times)

New Orleans Steve

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2005, 08:17:33 am »

O.K.'
 I think on one hand the anti auto tune thing is on an artistic level. I mean it's just like cheating.  I really like the steroids analogy.
 

 Further, it can De humanize the whole thing. As in, the 'chipmunk' effect I sighted in the Rock + Roll hall of fame performance of Percy Sledge (sorry to say so). Now, would it have been better to have him get up there and give the poor performance I witnessed a few months earlier? Or perhaps have him at table sitting silently.

 Again, my original post asks, why do ALL of these sound "The Same". Different producers, Labels and studios and all the same. And I can't get it. So, part of what I take from this is that some of this auto tune (and other in the box technique) strip the performance to the point where you can't hear the Nuance of the performance. I really can't tell anything about the technicalities of the production. Usually, with conventional technique, I get some clue. It might be erroneous. But I can guess. The effects of auto tune negate this. How much difference can classy mics or performances really mean, If these techniques negate so much of it?

Steve
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wireline

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2005, 09:58:54 am »

Quote:

Again, my original post asks, why do ALL of these sound "The Same". Different producers, Labels and studios and all the same


Its the "A List" mentality I think...

One example is Brent Mason on guitar...superlative player, possible the most versatile player I've ever heard, but no matter what he's playing he still sounds like Brent...now a few months back I read an article that showed the top 10 hits (all different artists with vastly different songs and styles)...and Brent played on 7 of them.  There are many other players who seem to work on 90% of Nashville projects...

It just seems to me that regardless of the musicianship, chameleon like changes from genre to genre, a player is going to sound like him/her self...so when 10 people are playing 90% of what you are hearing, of course its gonna have some similarities...same thing with early MoTown I believe - different songs, different styles, different production techniques, but just from the players you KNEW it was MoTown.

Combine this notion with the previously mentioned AT discussions and AR reluctance to release anything that actually sounds a bit different, and the end results will by default have to resemble each other I think...and I think it helps explain why the best stuff coming out of Nashville (or anywhere else) are using different players...just because it sounds different.

Again, just an observation....no offense (more praises than anything else...) meant to anyone involved, and if I'm all wrong, please correct me.
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2005, 11:23:25 am »

wireline wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 08:58

...Combine this notion with the previously mentioned AT discussions and AR reluctance to release anything that actually sounds a bit different,...
I think people are projecting a lot into what is in its essence a very simple, if hard to solve, problem. Advertisers are controlling most of the music that reaches the public today. They are determining this using focus groups and other forms of market research aimed at fine-tuning who will be seeing or hearing their advertisements. This process has led to a signature "sound" for each demographic group they are trying to focus. The result is that only music that "sounds the same" can get on the air or even booked in concerts.

Now advertising has always been a factor however what has changed is that today they want radio to sort their audiences rather than to attract a broad listenership.

John Ivan

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2005, 02:50:04 pm »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 11:23

wireline wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 08:58

...Combine this notion with the previously mentioned AT discussions and AR reluctance to release anything that actually sounds a bit different,...
I think people are projecting a lot into what is in its essence a very simple, if hard to solve, problem. Advertisers are controlling most of the music that reaches the public today. They are determining this using focus groups and other forms of market research aimed at fine-tuning who will be seeing or hearing their advertisements. This process has led to a signature "sound" for each demographic group they are trying to focus. The result is that only music that "sounds the same" can get on the air or even booked in concerts.

Now advertising has always been a factor however what has changed is that today they want radio to sort their audiences rather than to attract a broad listenership.


Very well stated by someone who would know. Thanks Bob.

Steve, A large part of what you are hearing might be singing style,as discussed earlier and the fact that in almost every case, there is ONLY top of the line mic's,pre's, room,comp's being used to print. Then, there is the sound of editing. which breath to leave in, which one to take out,de-essing and so on. They even move things around sometimes to make a "feel". as in, forward or back. they can take a train beat from a kit and make it feel totally different then how the drummer made it feel.
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floodstage

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2005, 08:11:19 pm »

Just a side comment:

I noticed a mention of Bob Dylan above.

Remember the song "Lay Lady Lay" on the album Nashville Skyline?

That was done in Nash-Vegas wasn't it?

To me that song seems to be a textbook example of a Nashville vocal approach.

(and that record was many many years before AT)

Wonder how many takes that song took!?
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2005, 08:54:42 pm »

floodstage wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 19:11

Just a side comment:...To me that song seems to be a textbook example of a Nashville vocal approach...Wonder how many takes that song took!?
Johnston and Dylan would probably split a gut over that comment! Bob Johnston is notorious for telling singers to mispronounce every word. Dylan already had THAT technique down so it's pretty clear they took the opposite approach.

Everybody I know who has recorded with Dylan has said it was always live one take.

vernier

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2005, 09:33:47 pm »

Dylan is a folksinger ..and they like recording natural.
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natpub

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2005, 10:11:41 pm »

Commenting on the original post, while the top 20 on CMT may all sound very present and accurate, I certainly see no comparrison between the sound of say, Shania Twain/Mutt Lang, and say, Martina McBridge and John McBride's shop. The PT sound of Shania's vox sounds nothing like the tracks Martina has coming out of Blackbird, to me. At least on the disc itself. Watching it on TV makes a difference, and certainly shoves the vox forward.

Also, most the top 20 CMT videos are "Vocal forward" mixes, which are fairly common practice I think. You can definately hear the differenc between the video mix and the disc version on things like Keith Urban, etc.
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Curve Dominant

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2005, 10:29:13 pm »

maxim wrote on Tue, 29 March 2005 21:30

i suspect that AT-bashing is a symptom of musician-phobia (check out any of the gag threads)

while there are some dumbass musos around, it, probably, is rooted in the subconscious insecurity that a lot of engineers really wanted to be rock stars

they are also pissed off that their essential contributions aren't being acknowledged by the public

instead, the "useless divas" get all the chicks and glory

you get a similar experience among the tech crews on films and in theatre

notice that the more experienced and secure AE's don't indulge in AT-bashing, but use it strictly as a tool

keep in mind, that tuning vocals has been around as long as u47's

just my psychoanalytic $0.02 (@$150/hour)


OOOHHH!!! SOMEBODY finally went there. I love it!

That is all SO true.

vernier

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2005, 01:59:35 am »

I don't mind autotune on Kelly Clarkson's new cute pop tune, but can't stand it on country ..(Le-ann-Womack's new CD comes to mind) ..would be nice to have a special edition of that (recorded like Patsy did).
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floodstage

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2005, 10:44:52 am »

 
Bob Olhsson wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 20:54

floodstage wrote on Wed, 30 March 2005 19:11

Just a side comment:...To me that song seems to be a textbook example of a Nashville vocal approach...Wonder how many takes that song took!?
Johnston and Dylan would probably split a gut over that comment! Bob Johnston is notorious for telling singers to mispronounce every word. Dylan already had THAT technique down so it's pretty clear they took the opposite approach.

Everybody I know who has recorded with Dylan has said it was always live one take.



Glad to say something that would make someone laugh, even if they are laughing at me for my lack of knowledge.   Smile

To try and re-state my point in a simpler way:  Dylan recorded that album and the vocals were so smooth, so different, from all his previous work, that many people didn't even know it was Dylan when they heard it on the radio.

Not trying to say he's Patsy Cline or something! Laughing
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New Orleans Steve

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2005, 07:03:58 pm »

Ivan 40 wrote...
Steve, A large part of what you are hearing might be singing style,as discussed earlier and the fact that in almost every case, there is ONLY top of the line mic's,pre's, room,comp's being used to print. Then, there is the sound of editing. which breath to leave in, which one to take out,de-essing and so on. They even move things around sometimes to make a "feel". as in, forward or back. they can take a train beat from a kit and make it feel totally different then how the drummer made it feel.
 
 Thanks for the reply Ivan. I was spifically refering to the 'New' country sound a la CMT. Thanks for the input!

Natpup wrote...
   ]Commenting on the original post, while the top 20 on CMT may all sound very present and accurate, I certainly see no comparrison between the sound of say, Shania Twain/Mutt Lang, and say, Martina McBridge and John McBride's shop. The PT sound of Shania's vox sounds nothing like the tracks Martina has coming out of Blackbird, to me. At least on the disc itself. Watching it on TV makes a difference, and certainly shoves the vox forward.

Also, most the top 20 CMT videos are "Vocal forward" mixes, which are fairly common practice I think. You can definately hear the differenc between the video mix and the disc version on things like Keith Urban, etc.

  Ahhh... The Vocal forward mix. I guess with automation it's just a key stroke away. Thanks for that opeservation. That's the kind of info I'm looking for. This really advances the conversation. THANk You for that input.
 I always think Nashville has been "Vocal Forward"...That's why I like it! I really find the Vox lacking in many other production styles.

Streve
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