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Author Topic: Nashville Vocals  (Read 26962 times)

Meriphew

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2005, 02:20:34 pm »

If you want some new "old school" flavored country vox, get Neko Case's "Blacklisted". IMO she's the best out there right now. Recorded in Tucson by Craig Schumacher (I believe). I don't think there's any autotune on that.

vernier

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2005, 05:57:34 pm »

Nashville vocal-wise, you can't beat Mandy Barnett.

http://www.mandymusic.com/
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compasspnt

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2005, 09:36:03 pm »

Bill Mueller wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 21:34

Terry,

I've been wanting to ask you about this and now is a good time. I have a Shania Twain CD with a track of yours on it. I would love to hear what Mutt's like in the studio and how you go from your more "organic" sound to Mutt's synthetic country sound. BTW, I'm a car fan of Shania. By that I mean that I love her sound in the car, not so much in the control room.

Best Regards,

Bill


Well, I have "accidentally" ignored a couple of Mutt/Shania questions, but I guess that's not really fair to the Forum...

Mutt is a good friend, and I am a big fan of him and his talent.  He has very kindly asked me on occasion to work with him, and I am always happy to oblige.  In the case of the recent Shania album, I was asked to help oversee various overdubs when he was so busy with other tasks on the album that he couldn't actually come to the Nassau sessions.  So we would coordinate over the phone exactly what he wanted, and exchange files via ftp.  On many other occasions of course, he has done sessions here live and in person.

I think Mutt is a totally incredible producer, and he is the hardest worker I have ever seen in the studio.  He is able to maintain absolute concentration over a longer period than I ever thought possible.  You don't notice him eating or taking breaks; he will always be the first one there and the last one to leave.  And the resultant success is undeniable, whether you are a fan of his music or not.

However, Mutt is a very private person, and shuns public display, so I should probably not comment much more than this.

Thanks for the interest!
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Mark Gifford

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2005, 09:58:47 pm »

For some fabulous Nashville-style vocals, without the autotuning, check out "Miss Fortune" by Allison Moorer.

It came with a sticker on it that said "No Autotuning Was Used On This CD."

Amazing singer, songs, production, etc. Produced by R.S. Field, mixed by George Massenburg. She's got 4-5 records out, all of them great, but unfortunatley she doesn't seem to sell many...

MG
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Eric Rudd

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2005, 08:38:32 am »

Murray Cullen wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 22:57

Nashville vocal-wise, you can't beat Mandy Barnett.

http://www.mandymusic.com/



Or Alison Moorer.

Eric
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New Orleans Steve

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2005, 09:43:10 am »

O.K.
  This thread has really shed some light on this whole thing for me. THANKS everyone.

 I would have never suspected the 'in the box thing', I just don't work that way....Yet. I'm about to make a small plunge into a DAW system. When I really get ready I will seek advice on another forum here at REP.

So, the next question, With all of these auto tune ing that we are talking about.

 Is this Antaries brand plugs, OR are there other products that do similar things? What's everyone using?

And an additional comment. Now that you guys have hipped me to it, I was watching a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction thing on VH1. AMAZING production. Everything, the lights, the editing, just great.
Percy Sledge was inducted. Now, I was on a sound crew that did him, and with all respect, he could have used some help. So, on this show, now that I knew what to look for I could so easily hear it. Again, that perfection with regards to the Just being their thing that started this conversation for me. But, the pitch correction ruined the glissando of "When a Man Loves a Woman". It just seemed like Aaaa Eeee Oooo Uuuu.<I don't really know how to spell it!

Steve
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rankus

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2005, 11:59:00 am »

New Orleans Steve wrote on Sat, 26 March 2005 06:43

O.K.
    Is this Antaries brand plugs, OR are there other products that do similar things? What's everyone using?

Steve





Have a look at "Melodyne" by a company called Celemony .... very robust and can do way more than AT.
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bushwick

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2005, 09:55:53 pm »

This vocal discussion has gotten me interested to post something that might be contrary to many folks opinion. I was told years ago that many tube mics can get too tubey with other tube components in their path. These days, my main vocal path  for tracking is either a M7 or K47 capsuled u47, or an Elam into a v72, into an BA6A (!!!) comp and I am getting the most ridiculous vocal sounds that I have ever heard in my life. This is my first set up and other than changing out the mics or putting in a highpass, I have not had this fail yet.

The v72 was modded for gain and with pad, and the pad is important for high output mics, but my god friends - absolutely the most insane path I've ever heard. (sometimes an 8900 between the v72 and the ba6a for super dynamicy stuff)

In heaven...
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mr. moon

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2005, 07:33:55 am »

Mark Gifford wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 20:58

For some fabulous Nashville-style vocals, without the autotuning, check out "Miss Fortune" by Allison Moorer.

It came with a sticker on it that said "No Autotuning Was Used On This CD."

Amazing singer, songs, production, etc. Produced by R.S. Field, mixed by George Massenburg. She's got 4-5 records out, all of them great, but unfortunatley she doesn't seem to sell many...

MG


I need to get some of those "No Autotuning..." stickers. AutoTune sucks! Mad ...Don't get me started on that abomination.

However, it is great to hear that there are other artists and producers out there who aren't using it! Cool

-mr moon
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rush909

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2005, 04:45:31 pm »

mr. moon wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 13:33

Mark Gifford wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 20:58

For some fabulous Nashville-style vocals, without the autotuning, check out "Miss Fortune" by Allison Moorer.

It came with a sticker on it that said "No Autotuning Was Used On This CD."

Amazing singer, songs, production, etc. Produced by R.S. Field, mixed by George Massenburg. She's got 4-5 records out, all of them great, but unfortunatley she doesn't seem to sell many...

MG


I need to get some of those "No Autotuning..." stickers. AutoTune sucks! Mad ...Don't get me started on that abomination.

However, it is great to hear that there are other artists and producers out there who aren't using it! Cool

-mr moon


with all due respect, saying auto-tune sucks is like saying electricity sucks...  

Like electricity it's got it’s time and place...   there is nothing stopping you from turning off the lights and having a romantic candle lit dinner, but when you are looking for that misplaced pack of condoms, you sure are happy you can turn those lights back on Twisted Evil !

r.
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mr. moon

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2005, 07:44:49 pm »

rush909 wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 15:45



with all due respect, saying auto-tune sucks is like saying electricity sucks...  

Like electricity it's got it’s time and place...   there is nothing stopping you from turning off the lights and having a romantic candle lit dinner, but when you are looking for that misplaced pack of condoms, you sure are happy you can turn those lights back on Twisted Evil !

r.



I would respectfully disagree with you about Autotune. Our western society is now centered around electricity for our day-to-day existence (directly and indirectly) and for most of us, we cannot live without it without experiencing a major impact in our lives. Autotune, however, has "revolutionized" the recording industry in such a way that those who cannot record a vocal take properly (in key, etc.) are able to be "fixed" enough to produce albums which sell millions of copies. I guess it doesn't matter that they cannot reproduce their performances live as they can just sing to a vocal track or use the hardware Autotune units.

IMHO, Autotune is a cop out, plain and simple. If you can't sing, don't sing.

Disclaimer: HOWEVER... I have the luxury of NOT relying on music to pay my bills, so I don't have to worry about recording an album that will sell a million copies (or even one copy) to put food on my table, so I don't have to be concerned with the marketability of any product to support me. I also have the luxury of working with 2 vocalists who can sing well and put in the time and effort to re-record vocal takes until they are exactly as we want them to be. I have worked with a few "artists" in the past who would much rather be lazy and "fix it with Autotune" than put in the time and energy into recording a perfect take, I found them frustrating to work with especially because they had no "ear" to hear that they weren't hitting the notes correctly.  MY POSITION REGARDING AUTOTUNE MIGHT BE QUITE DIFFERENT IF I HAD TO PRODUCE A PRODUCT FOR SALE TO ENSURE MY LIVELIHOOD.  Rolling Eyes

-mr moon
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horowizard

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2005, 12:21:48 am »

A few years ago, a buddy of mine returned from Nashville.  While working down there, he noticed the engineers were printing their vocal takes using two adjacent tracks.  That's 1 pair of tracks for each take.  They were still recording using 2" analogue at the time and he told me the vocal sounds they got were huge.  

This makes some sense to me, as I have used a pair of adjacent tracks for printing bass to tape.  It's not exactly the same as a wider track, but is similar in principle.  You are going for more bandwidth.  I don't know if it is merely psychological, but the bass does seem to pack more power than when I only used one track, at least for recording rock music.

So, after the buddy comes back with this info, I notice that everybody at our place is now suddenly cutting all the vocals using two tracks, only using ADATs!  Now here is where I am not convinced that using two digital tracks will actually be an improvement over one.  When I questioned this practice, they really couldn't say for sure if the vocals did indeed sound fuller.  In fact the best reason they could come up with for doing this was having the ability to EQ and process the tracks differently.  In that case you might as well just mult the track to a second channel and not waste the real estate.

After about a week, things returned to normal.  And then we got our Pro Tools rig (yes, we had to do it..) things haven
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John Ivan

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2005, 09:43:38 am »

rush909 wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 16:45

mr. moon wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 13:33

Mark Gifford wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 20:58

For some fabulous Nashville-style vocals, without the autotuning, check out "Miss Fortune" by Allison Moorer.

It came with a sticker on it that said "No Autotuning Was Used On This CD."

Amazing singer, songs, production, etc. Produced by R.S. Field, mixed by George Massenburg. She's got 4-5 records out, all of them great, but unfortunatley she doesn't seem to sell many...

MG


I need to get some of those "No Autotuning..." stickers. AutoTune sucks! Mad ...Don't get me started on that abomination.

However, it is great to hear that there are other artists and producers out there who aren't using it! Cool

-mr moon


with all due respect, saying auto-tune sucks is like saying electricity sucks...  

Like electricity it's got it's time and place...   there is nothing stopping you from turning off the lights and having a romantic candle lit dinner, but when you are looking for that misplaced pack of condoms, you sure are happy you can turn those lights back on Twisted Evil !

r.




The difference is that reaching for condoms isn't Art. Electricity provides any number of utility oriented uses that can make life in the dark,more manageable. Auto tune,is an audio "enhancement" device that fools people into thinking people can sing when they can't. Some might feel this is legit part of the "process" of giving the listener a good experience. I disagree with this point of view.

We all have to draw the line somewhere. Old recordist of days gone bye {and still to this day!} think that fake reverb and overdubing is NOT legit. From their point of reference, it's true. I don't like the fact that singing USED TO BE a skill that only a few of us had. Now, almost everyone can be presented as a singer. This just can't be good for the art. IMNTLBHO....
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wireline

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2005, 11:48:28 am »

Then I think this goes back to the most basic of arguements:  exactly what[/] is our job description?

If we are there to capture the truest representation of a performance, then AT, reverb, even EQ should be strictly forbidden...

But if our job is to make the very best product based on the raw materials, then its OK...

I don't remember who, but I asked a question here some time back about how much treatment should we put on tracks and mixes, due to the catchall of "reality."  The answer (again, I apologize to whoever replied with this" was that we are not in the business of reproducing reality, we are in the business of creating a "hyper-reality," or a new definiton of that reality.

All that stuff aside, I don't use AT anymore, but can correct very short passages using Samplitude's time/pitch correction...the last few projects, if the singer needed more than that, I had them just sing it over.

More information on just how much stock should be put into my opinion here:
- I don't cost $250 an hour
- I don't have any major (and very few minor) label things (hopefully this will be changing this year) that have bean counters breathing down my throat.
- I don't particularly care for anything that has been commercial radio country anymore (I call it bubblegum country...) so my opinion really doesn't matter (I just wanted to say it all anyway)
- Some of the BEST things ever to come out of Nashville (or anywhere else) had something called vocalist style...George Jones, Vern Gosdin, Moe Bandy all had it - they didn't hit every note right on target, but the getting there is what made the song...I think its called a part of the emotional aspect of the melody (John Lennon was THE master of that 'blue note') I think...)

But there again, what the hell do I know?
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John Ivan

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Re: Nashville Vocals
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2005, 01:44:48 pm »

wireline wrote on Mon, 28 March 2005 11:48

Then I think this goes back to the most basic of arguements:  exactly what[/] is our job description?

If we are there to capture the truest representation of a performance, then AT, reverb, even EQ should be strictly forbidden...

But if our job is to make the very best product based on the raw materials, then its OK...

I don't remember who, but I asked a question here some time back about how much treatment should we put on tracks and mixes, due to the catchall of "reality."  The answer (again, I apologize to whoever replied with this" was that we are not in the business of reproducing reality, we are in the business of creating a "hyper-reality," or a new definiton of that reality.

All that stuff aside, I don't use AT anymore, but can correct very short passages using Samplitude's time/pitch correction...the last few projects, if the singer needed more than that, I had them just sing it over.

More information on just how much stock should be put into my opinion here:
- I don't cost $250 an hour
- I don't have any major (and very few minor) label things (hopefully this will be changing this year) that have bean counters breathing down my throat.
- I don't particularly care for anything that has been commercial radio country anymore (I call it bubblegum country...) so my opinion really doesn't matter (I just wanted to say it all anyway)
- Some of the BEST things ever to come out of Nashville (or anywhere else) had something called vocalist style...George Jones, Vern Gosdin, Moe Bandy all had it - they didn't hit every note right on target, but the getting there is what made the song...I think its called a part of the emotional aspect of the melody (John Lennon was THE master of that 'blue note') I think...)

But there again, what the hell do I know?


I think your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

As for the question about what our job is,I think it's both. It changes all the time. Sometimes I feel like I don't need to do much and other times, I create the tune from edits. I still have to use Auto tune when I mix sometimes. I don't have it here but when I work at other studios and I'm mixing a song ,if the singer is out of tune,I tune it. I also have to mix stuff that has drum machine parts sometimes. I don't like it but, I do it.

My room is now for me and stuff I'm a musician on,only. I take everything else to purpose built studios.

The problem I have with this auto tune crap is fairly obvious. The people being tuned,would not otherwise be making records in some cases. All this stuff that is doing away with human recourses is stuff I don't like. I keep coming back to the drum machine example. I have not heard a machine pattern that would not be better served by a drummer and a percussionist. The truth is, it's easier to turn the machine on than to deal with a person. This is not a good enough reason to use machines. To the extent that folks have used loops and machines to play stuff that a drummer would not or could not play, I have been unimpressed. Same with auto tuned vocals.It's not worth what it dose to the art as a whole to have "JOE BLOWS" vocal in tune. I would rather hear it the way he printed,or, not hear it at all.

It's interesting to note that big studios didn't like the huge explosion of home studios popping up all over the place because all of a sudden, everyone thought they were an engineer and could do it them selves. For the most part, people can't do it themselves and the records ether end up sounding pretty bad or a real engineer has to rescue it.

As a person who spent my whole life this far, trying to get really good at drumming, guitar playing and singing, I feel their Pain
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