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Author Topic: Placing tweeters to the inside...  (Read 4217 times)

Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Placing tweeters to the inside...
« on: March 13, 2005, 08:23:54 pm »

Hi,

I was reading the manual of Alesis monitor Ones mk2 and they do recommend that the user mount them with the tweeters to the inside of the listening triangle.
I remember a few years ago Bill Roberts (Level) recommending me the very same technique, concerning nearfields, like the  popular Yamaha  NS10s.
At the manual they describe some pros and cons and I am testing them right now with this new topology.
have you guys ever considered this on mstering set-ups?
In fact I do not see this arrangement very much on popular studios worldwide.
Thanks
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
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TotalSonic

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2005, 08:41:27 pm »

Hi Alecio -
In general near field monitors are not used in mastering.  I have a pair of NS-10ms kept off to the side that on request I'll play back things for clients through  or occasionally maybe check through for a minute but 99% of the playback in my work is with the full range monitors set up in mid/far field.  I think you'll find most ME's do the same.  I think you'll also find that most mastering monitors have the tweeters aligned vertically with woofers so that this really isn't an issue.  Also - I think it's best to work off of manufacturers recommendations as a starting point and then shift speaker placement around experimentally until you find something that works well for you, and then stick with it - as familiarity is the key to getting the most out of your monitors.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2005, 08:45:28 pm »

Thanks Steve. I am not pretty sure yet of the big improvments. I decided to open a mix, do some fader automations, listen to some recently done mixes. Hope to have a fuller opinion soon.
But it sound fine.
Probably less comb filtering while one moves his head from L to R and less stress trying to be exctly at the center of the sweet spot during mix time.
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
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dcollins

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2005, 08:49:40 pm »

Al

bobkatz

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2005, 09:12:15 pm »

Al
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chrisj

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2005, 09:55:18 pm »

If you have tweeters to the inside without any toe-in or fancy crossover delay trickery, you will have a particular kind of physical time-unalignment, the opposite of geometries like the Dunlavys or Lipinskis. The tweeters will be closer to your ear than the woofers, and their sounds will be more out-front and uninterfered with by lower frequencies- even if the actual mix has them interfered with. I can produce this effect with a group delay control on an EQ of mine that lets me slide the 'tap' for the FIR moving-average filter around... slide the highest band forward a bit and the sparkly stuff comes off the surface of the sound and more forward at you.

I wouldn't want my speakers doing that too- it would get confusing- but if you're not actually fooling with group delay for sound effects it's not such a big deal. Again- if it sounds great to you, go from there.

One thing about tweeter-center with no toe-in is that the lower frequency drivers can't beam at your ear- irregularities in response will go straight out into the room and you're listening quite off-axis to everything. If the drivers beam, you might be getting a more accurate sound without toe-in.

Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2005, 10:04:27 pm »

Many thanks guys. Very informative!

Very off topic now.. Monitor Ones passive MK2 are much better than their  original formula and than their self powered version.

Now.. would someone explain to me what is toe-in? I could not find a proper translation for this term, besides the basic "location", "finger/toe" meanings.

Thanks again
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

MySpace:
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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hi, dc
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2005, 10:22:54 pm »

Hi, DC
Please, check pages 20 and 21 of the pdf:
http://www.alesis.com/downloads/manuals/M1ActiveMKII_Manual. pdf
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

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zetterstroem

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2005, 12:10:31 am »

hey al
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2005, 04:48:00 pm »

many thanks, bud.

Intersting.. someone mentioned I should separate the monitors a little bit more. So the perfect equilateral triangle idea  must be abandoned?
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

MySpace:
http://www.myspace.com/aleciocostamasterizacao

Level

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2005, 07:00:30 pm »

Al
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zetterstroem

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 12:58:17 am »

Al
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bblackwood

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2005, 08:38:57 am »

FWIW, there's no rule about speaker placement - do what sounds good. Some speakers sound better toed-in, some don't...
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Brad Blackwood
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zetterstroem

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2005, 02:40:29 pm »

certainly no rules..... but maybe rules of thumb  Smile
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2005, 10:12:49 pm »

Agreed!
I fact what I have concluded now with just one week mixing and mastering with this new topology is that it seems I'm taking my eq/panning decisions faster. I would really love to post some stuff of mine and see you gurus criticize the stuff, ranging from classical to hard rock.
Nice friday
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

MySpace:
http://www.myspace.com/aleciocostamasterizacao

Level

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2005, 08:05:16 am »

It takes getting used to the different display that inside tweeters give. My speakers work best in that scheme where others may not. I could not imagine laying B&W's on their sides!
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TotalSonic

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2005, 09:02:23 am »

Level wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 13:05

I could not imagine laying B&W's on their sides!


At Tiki, a studio I've done some recording at in Glen Cove NY, the B&W nearfields (forget the model #) are on their sides:
http://www.tikirecording.com/Media/craBIG.jpg
Actually sounds really nice.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2005, 09:09:13 am »

I imagine he's talking about these:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/images%5CphotoItem%5CPich.jpg
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Brad Blackwood
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Level

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2005, 09:11:55 am »

Exactly Brad.

You nailed it. I should have been more specific to the floorstanders.

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TotalSonic

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2005, 10:26:49 am »

Level wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 14:11

Exactly Brad.

You nailed it. I should have been more specific to the floorstanders.





hee hee - kinda figured that. Just throwing a curve ball out there.

Wish I knew the model # on those little B&W's -  I heard by my friend who used to work there that they were actually discontinued - a shame cause they sound really great for a near field and I wouldn't mind picking up a pair for my home project studio.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Sam Lord

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2005, 02:05:32 pm »

chrisj wrote on Sun, 13 March 2005 21:55

If you have tweeters to the inside without any toe-in or fancy crossover delay trickery, you will have a particular kind of physical time-unalignment,...



Amen to your whole post, Chris.  Time alignment makes a huge difference, whether you do it by correctly angling 2-ways, sitting exactly in one spot for 2+ways (for those designed properly), or if you fiddle with the latency of signals going to individual drivers.  Lots of great posts from you on this subject, thanks.
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zetterstroem

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2005, 03:05:03 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 14:02

Level wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 13:05

I could not imagine laying B&W's on their sides!


At Tiki, a studio I've done some recording at in Glen Cove NY, the B&W nearfields (forget the model #) are on their sides:
http://www.tikirecording.com/Media/craBIG.jpg
Actually sounds really nice.

Best regards,
Steve Berson



yeah.... but just emagine how great they would sound on floor stands.... upright and away from the console.....

BTW those big ones must sound absolutely terrible.... is that an attempt at a 15-inch fullrange driver??

hell freezes over before that sounds anything but loud
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Level

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2005, 04:02:50 pm »

Those big ones are UREI's and in well designed enclosures, they are very close to Altec 604's which were a mainstay in the 60's and make a great "check it loud and physical" mid field.

35Hz to 16KHz actually.
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bobkatz

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2005, 09:52:32 pm »

[quote title=ZETTERSTROEM wrote on Sun, 20 March 2005 15:05]
TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 14:02

Level wrote on Fri, 18 March 2005 13:05

I could not imagine laying B&W's on their sides!


At Tiki, a studio I've done some recording at in Glen Cove NY, the B&W nearfields (forget the model #) are on their sides:






Those can't be B&Ws! Look like Ureis to me. Isn't that a coaxial driver on one of them?


BK
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The other says-this is new and therefore better."

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TotalSonic

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2005, 10:48:28 pm »

bobkatz wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 02:52




Those can't be B&Ws! Look like Ureis to me. Isn't that a coaxial driver on one of them?


BK



Bob - the mains are indeed Ureis. Not something I've ever spent time monitoring through when I was there as they're more of "end of the day, lets crank it up and feel good about what we tracked" type of things than things you actually want to critically listen through while tracking.  I've done a few sessions there tracking my string quartet where I've been much more of a player than an engineer.  Nice studio with a comfy vibe, good mic closet and decent sounding live room.  The mic pres in this particular Trident 80 are actually really nice sounding.

but look at the pic at on top of the console at the little guys with the yellow woofers though - those are indeed B&W nearfields.  sound a heckuva lot better than the NS-10's (which aren't in that pic but they have a pair on top of the console there too) - I'll have to email Paul Mitchell, who used to be a staff engineer there, and find out what model they are (he has a pair for his own studio also).  He told me a bit ago that they had discontinued them and that the recent B&W nearfields he heard did not measure up in any way.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

dcollins

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2005, 01:51:50 am »

Sam Lord wrote on Sat, 19 March 2005 11:05


Amen to your whole post, Chris.  Time alignment makes a huge difference, whether you do it by correctly angling 2-ways, sitting exactly in one spot for 2+ways (for those designed properly), or if you fiddle with the latency of signals going to individual drivers.  Lots of great posts from you on this subject, thanks.



What does this have to do with time alignment?

DC

ammitsboel

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2005, 06:24:33 am »

Arent those B&W the 600 series?
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TotalSonic

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2005, 08:05:48 am »

ammitsboel wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 11:24

Arent those B&W the 600 series?


Don't the 600's have that little tweater that sticks out from the top?  These don't.  Then again - maybe they are - my curiosity is up - I'll have to send an email out.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

PP

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2005, 08:57:25 am »

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Level

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Re: Placing tweeters to the inside...
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2005, 09:21:52 am »

Peter to the rescue!
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