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Author Topic: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?  (Read 10318 times)

Fletcher

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http://www.pootle.demon.co.uk/wgo.htm

Ya know... I hate assholes like this.  Mad  

I mean I physically hate assholes like this.  

Not only did the piece of garbage use a background color that absolutely abuses the eyes, he and his ilk totally missed the whole point of why those "anomalies" were left in the presentation... the point was that the performance of the accepted take was a great performance... who gives a shit about the "technical imperfections"... if anything, the "technical imperfections" are part of the charm, part of the 'humanity' of the recording... they are far from "flaws" in any manner, shape, nor form.  

The purpose of recording is to transfer the artist's vision / intent / musical statements and emotion to the listener.  The recording process is NOT the focus of the presentation but a repeatable method of conveyance of artists' emotional presence... a "means to and end" if you will.   This moron missed the point of the presentation focusing on the process, instead of the artists' intent... it's moron wankers like this that also think the Mona Lisa shoulda had bigger tits, missing the depth of the eyes.

A few years ago I had a client for whom I was building a full recording facility.  He had a friend that had a company that built HiFi systems that started at around $250,000 and went up from there.  

I listened to a CD I had done on one of these "uber HiFi"s... there was one song on this CD where the absolute best drum performance on one of the songs was a "rehearsal" take.  If you solo'd the "drums-side" track [there were only 3 drum mics on this recording... "front", "over", and "side"] you could clearly hear me yelling the arrangement to the drummer on that song... but the take was amazing, it just nailed the emotion of the song... and once the guitars and shit were playing you couldn't hear my yelling so who gave a fuck, THE PERFORMANCE FELT GREAT [the actual purpose of this exercise called recording!!].

So there I am listening to this $450k+ HiFi from hell set up in their "demo room" [can you possibly imagine someone: (A) taking the time to build a FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND US DOLLAR stereo system; or; (B) anyone stupid enough to waste $450k on a fucking stereo?  mind boggling].

Low and  behold, there I am making a 'guest appearance' in the left speaker.  I looked at the mook with the "HiFi from hell" and said to him "great!! ... your system TOTALLY missed the intention of the production team on this music, which is directly misrepresenting the artists' wishes, and vision.  The intent of this music was for the listener to be connected to the music on an emotional level, not to give some moron with more money than brains the ability to nit pick on the "technical flaws" that aren't "technical flaws" because they were active production decisions".

He didn't understand what I was talking about... after all, you could hear EVERYTHING and that was the purpose of a HiFi system.

I couldn't argue.  Arguing would have been like trying to teach a pig to sing... would have frustrated the hell out of me and annoyed the hell out of the pig.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Barry Hufker

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 08:12:47 AM »

I take your point completely and certainly don't fault it.  I suppose I see this kind of thing as a little more harmless.  Did The Beatles hope to make records someone would dissect note by noise?  I am confident the answer is no.  As you say, these are people who have lost the capactity to enjoy the art and so to continue being involved with The Beatles, they must look for new things to "enjoy" about the "music."

The sad thing is that at some point, this too will fail to entrance them and then they'll have to find further minutiae to enjoy, discuss and argue about.

Fletcher, you know better than most that "some get it and some don't."  But that's OK.  'Cause letting them have this means they stay out of discussions of more importance to us, such as life and art.

Barry

I probably should have included some lame pun about "where's Maxwell's Silver Hammer when you need it?" but thought I'd spare us that -- until now of course.
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Level

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 08:15:03 AM »

Right on. People have way too much money and time on their hands to enjoy something for what it is...rather they want to make it into something it is not..and pay ruthlessly for the tools to prove it.

Imagine the horror of having a Pet McCaw and stripping each feather from the bird to admire them. Fuck the bird...with some people, it is about feathers.

The beauty is in the whole, not the sum of its parts.
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wireline

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2005, 08:50:25 AM »

What astound me about the whole thing are:

- Who besides the criminally insane think they are capable of second guessing Sir George Martin and company?
- Who really cares WHAT they heard...I don't need them to tell me what a peanut butter sandwich tastes like, either.
- Just how much free time do those people have?
- I have just sent them a bill, at my regular hourly fee, to be reimbursed for the time I wasted looking at that stuff...
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overeasy

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2005, 10:12:38 AM »

Well said, Fletcher. How long can this parasitic rape of "everything Beatles" continue? I wish Lennon was around to kick some ass.

I'm not anti-audiophile, but the few I've known scare me a little - What with the $1500 RCA cords and rooms with seating for one. Is an exciting performance of a great song necessarily any better through $450,000??? If I HAD a $450,000 stereo, I don't think I could focus on anything else but keeping everyone AWAY from it.

I love gear, obsessively, but c'mon already.

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Barry Hufker

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2005, 12:09:11 PM »

$450K is a lot of poor people fed, a lot of poor people housed.  That's an under-developed art.

I haven't heard a system that cost $450k.  I have heard one that cost a tenth of that.  Despite the time and money spent it still sounded just like so much rattling paper and plastic.  For $450k or even $45k, you could hire a hell of a lot of musicians to come to your house and play real music for you.  To me that's a lot more impressive than having monoliths in your living room with equipment lights you can stare at while you sit in the dark.

Barry

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JGreenslade

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2005, 12:24:57 PM »

I've heard quite a few
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zmix

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2005, 12:37:45 PM »

Fletcher,

I have been looking at the site you linked in your post. It's important to remember that these are the "arm chair quarterbacks" of music and NOT creative types. Punters love to discover these things in existing recordings, and it's harmless fun really, but it also provides the seeds of it's own undoing. And ours, if we're not careful. There is a real danger here and it's simply this : Cynicism.

Cynicism is the death of art.

Art is the thing here. Picasso, even in his cubist period never quite drew straight lines, did that affect the effectiveness of his work? No. It's important for those of us on this forum to recognise that music is an art form, it is alive, it stumbles and it falls.

A cynic is defined as someone who thinks that there is a reward for finding fault. An artist will set his aim a bit higher than that. I find these 'mistakes' as pointed out on the site to be quite liberating*. In pop music it's about how you say it, warts and all. Too perfect and it's a jingle, or modern country.

Thankfully there are not too many people with $450k to spend on a stereo who are buying our records.

-CZ

*in fact this website is a FANTASTIC tool! The next time someone becomes over-anylitical in the studio, I'll send them there!!!

J.J. Blair

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2005, 12:43:13 PM »

People get weird when it come sto the Beatles.  They read a little too much into it, like that Manson guy.

I have a friend who worked for Lennon for years and gets e-mails from lots of nuts.  She recently sent me this one that she received:

      Recently, I bought a computer program that helps you find information in the hidden Bible Codes.  Well, if you don't know already, you are in there with John, the other Beatles, their wives, Yoko etc.  The information is very specific. There is a ranch house on South Beach near a public dock and a yacht  that belongs to the house.  The Beatles are involved with this house.  There is an E-mail address AngelsMission9@AOL.com.  Are you familiar with this E-mail address.  It goes to a pizza restaurant in Deland, Florida but then the messages are sent from here back to the house or the yacht.  Anyways, Yoko shows up unexpectedly at this house and a struggle starts maybe on the yacht and I think she is eventually killed this way and you are there.  I'm not sure when all this happens but the coincidences have been too great in how I found this information for it to be all nonsense.

I mean, it's one thing for Brian to figure out how they did something, but for some acid casualty to try and figure out why they did something is a whole different story.  Especially, when there usually never was a why.  It just was.  

Stay away from the brown acid.  It's a real bummer.
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JGreenslade

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2005, 03:45:31 PM »

JJ wrote:
Quote:


People get weird when it comes to the Beatles.



I guess this is the main reason security at Abbey Rd is so tight, no other studio I've ever visited is that rigorous.

Justin
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wwittman

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2005, 04:25:45 PM »

Good point, Fletcher.

I remember hearing a demo of some super-box  some years back that was supposed to add 'spatial dimension' to your mixes..
Anyway, you know the opening of Dark Side Of The Moon that has a Bass Drum EQ'd (fairly WELL, by Alan Parsons) to sound like a beating heart?

Well this guy ran that track through his box and lo and behold, it sounded, for the first time in MY recollection, like a bass drum that was EQ'd and compressed.
TOTALLY destroying the illusion.

Well that made it clear to me that this was NOT something I was going to subject my mixes to.

People need to remember it's all about creating a satisfying ILLUSION.


as far as not having a ball-peen hammer around when you need one...
that's WHY they make SM-57's <g>

Somewhere I still have a letter from John Lennon talking about how stupid he thought all the "Paul is dead" people were.
It had apparently progressed from amusing to irritating for them.

I actually think this guy is rather harmless, but it certainly all CAN get silly in a hurry.

The guys who freak me out are the ones who damage their guitars to look JUST LIKE the way John damaged his (which John didn't on purpose).
Lucky that EMI mostly took good care of their gear or there'd be an aftermarket in U-47's with grills dented to look just like the one seen in X photo of John or Paul singing into it,
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Andy Simpson

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2005, 04:35:02 PM »

I guess that's one of the dangers of close mic'ing.....that one day somebody listens to it on a 'superior' system and hears something you didn't when you recorded it.

I've just been mixing some close-mic'd string recordings, and the sharp intakes of breath, wheezes and guffaws are making me smile....there's one particularly tricky section in a mozart piece that extracts a wonderful snort from the 1st violin (player).....

But hey, that's real!

Wink

Andy
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Brendan Thompson

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2005, 06:30:14 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Sat, 12 March 2005 23:41

trying to teach a pig to sing...


You obviously haven't seen the 2004 Australian Idol winner...
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Fletcher

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2005, 08:46:10 PM »

andy_simpson wrote on Sat, 12 March 2005 16:35

I guess that's one of the dangers of close mic'ing


I dare say that this is more like one of the dangers of not close mic'ing and trying to capture a performance by a group of musicians... sometimes shit happens that makes "a moment"... sometimes the shit that made "the moment" has a wart on it.

There are a couple of things I've done that sounded "too perfect" where we actually created warts... like there was one song I did where on the end of it we had the singer walk to the other side of the room from the vocal mic and say "was that it or what?" in a rather 'belligerent/disgusted' tone of voice... this was a 'staged wart' because the song was kinda musically heavy coming into the end and needed a 1/4 ounce of levity upon the conclusion of the song... so we staged some 'levity'.

There was another one I did where the first song on the album was also a rehearsal take... it features the tape machine getting up to speed... and some inadvertant band banter at the end.  Remember, this was a rehearsal... the orchestra had no idea I was rolling tape... for that matter I had no idea I was rolling tape for real, the band was working 'no headphones' so I had the luxury of working my sounds off tape without fucking with their ability to hear each other... the tape was rolling so I could do adjustments, however, the performance was so fucking killer (as in NEVER close to matched) that it became not only a take, but the first song on the album!!

For me, things like this go back to shit like the Johnny Winter record "Still Alive and Well" where before the title track there's this whole schtick that starts with "I'm hungry let's do this fucker" and moves into a bit of 'stoned band comedy'... "hit it on 4... bwonk, not now... on 4........... One-Two-Three-"(drum hit / band slam they hit it on "4"!!) guitar intro, song starts, rocks like fuck... sorta like a Texas version of "I dig a pigmy" or some shit... or some of the "banter" on 'Snake Oil' on 'Steve Earle and the Dukes' "Copperhead Road" album... you know it's bullshit ["I knew there was a first taker somewhere on this album"]... but it makes you smile none the less.
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mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

J.J. Blair

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2005, 09:56:01 PM »

thermionic wrote on Sat, 12 March 2005 12:45



I guess this is the main reason security at Abbey Rd is so tight, no other studio I've ever visited is that rigorous.

Justin


Actually, I remember going to CanAm, back when it was the home studio for Death Row records.  The first time I had ever been in a studio where there was an armed guard at the door!
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

brandondrury

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2005, 10:59:29 AM »

The guy running this website sounds like one of the band members I've recorded.  I'm probably a little too "unsterile" and maybe I like a little too much "levity", but I find that most of the bands that I work with (on the lower end of the totem poll) are so obsessed with everything being sterile and perfect that they would never allow weird noises on the record (unless it was some sample they downloaded).  

I believe a large reason the Beatles were the Beatles was simply because they were the type to embrace these sorts of things.  They did not live their creative lives by rules.  The reason that most of the bands I record deliver pizzas is because they do not embrace these things.  The live by rules.

Many bands I work with don't seam to think that they are trying to capture some magic onto tape/disk.  They are trying to impress the listener with some sort of "sterilization".  It blows my mind.

Quote:

what do you expect to hear if your cables cost more than the monitors that tracked the record?



That's an amazing analogy.  

The half a million dollar stereo argument supports the MP3 technology just that much more.  When listening on shitty computer speakers, you can't tell the difference anyway.  When you take the MP3s to better system it' gets fairly obvious very quickly that MP3s are not the same as a good .wav file.

For me, as a listener, the point is to get as much emotional response out of the music I'm listening to.  Seldom does one set of speakers or another make that difference.  The magic is in the song.  For those who don't understand that, they are truely missing out.

wwittman

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2005, 12:29:45 PM »

There ARE mistakes audible on Beatles records.. there are two extremely famous ones:
The original All You Need Is Love guitar solo which hits an extremely wrong note...

and at the end of the solo/break in Anytime At All when the piano plays the 3rd but the  guitar plays the suspended 4th.

Both these things were fixed in subsequent versions.. All You Need Is Love soon after and Anytime At All for the reissues.
So these things obviously bugged George Martin (or the band) enough to fix them at some point.

I don't think that this guy is suggesting that it's a failing that there are these errors or the little chair squeaks and such ... it's just that people have SUCH a fascination with The Beatles that there is always something else to obsess about.

It's the easter egg hunt that they enjoy.

I don't think it's a criticism or a call for 'perfection' in records.

The Beatles often overdubbed several, or many, things at once because of their limited tracks.
So naturally if you've got a great guitar solo but there's a small clam in the trumpet, or the back vocals are good but the tambourine stopped at one point and so on, they might let it go.
It certainly isn't that they sought out errors or noises.

I mentioned it recently in a other thread, but we cut One Of Us with the whole band playing together and left in the drums stopping and then re-entering in the last verse rather than recut everyone. We chose to leave it the way it happened.
It's just that today we could "fix" it, probably... The Beatles didn't have the option.
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William Wittman
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Phunkeman

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2005, 08:11:47 PM »

   Funny I have read a lot of post about this pre does not sound exactly like this pre or compressor or converters..etc....I don't know it all sounds like the same stuff from here.
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wwittman

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2005, 08:46:41 PM »

They do sound "DIFFERENT"

But that in no way means that a mic "doesn't go" with a preamp.

You find the preamp you like.. and then a high quality preamp is good with EVERY microphone.

I wasn;t being sarcastic.. thiunk about it logically... for MOST of the history of recorded music, studios had consoles and thsoe consoles had built-in mic preamps.
And the studios used every mic in their compliment without any "problems"
In fact they by and large made BETTER records.

No one ever said, "damn, if only I had another preamp for this mic" or "this overdub".

A good console sounded good.
End of story.

Same thing now with outboard mic pres.
A really good one does everything.

You don't need choices.

And if you WANT choices, although i think it's mostly silly, that's your choice certainly.
But anyone who says that one type of mic, or even one mic, only goes with one type or brand of preamp is simply full of it.

It's a non-concept.
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jackthebear

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2005, 05:50:50 AM »

What I find ironic in audiophileland is this.....

Surely if you have $400K to invest in a playback system, wouldn't logic dictate that if you spent a proportion of that on a great listening environment, then you'd be able to better hear what they're trying to achieve in the first place with less expensive equipment????? Rolling Eyes

Cheers,
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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2005, 06:36:46 PM »

Great post Fletcher.  Thanks!  I clicked on the link, but didn't read any of it because I noticed it was another "pick the Beatles apart" website.  I really dig the direction your posts seems to be taking lately about performance.

Thanks,
Robert
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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2005, 03:35:55 PM »

Hi folks, Mike Brown, maintainer/compiler of "What Goes On" here.

I was made aware of this forum topic by an email from Fletcher, and we've had an off-list discussion. I don't think we'll see entirely eye to eye on this, but I just want to set some misconceptions straight from my side. Sorry this is a bit long, but there's a fair bit to respond to.

Clearly Fletcher has strong opinions on my website, but reading his posting shows that to some extent, he's missed the point of the website. Having heard from Fletcher, he's filled me in on why he's so down on it.

Fletcher describes these anomalies as "flaws", something which I have been keen to point out is not entirely the case -- and if you'd care to read the introduction section, maybe that will make it clearer. If I'd meant the site to be about that, it'd be called "Beatle Bloopers" or somesuch. Or "BeatlesSuck.com".

The rest of Fletcher's posting is talking about people he assumes to be "of my ilk" and I don't recognise any of the stereotyping expressed as being relevant to me, so I'll skip that bit. And the $450k Hi Fi that I don't own, because I'm not an audiophile nut. Most of the following forum comments seem to have been spurred on by Fletcher's misconceptions of my motives ...

Barry Hufker: Make that "mostly harmless" and you've got a deal Smile Apart from the bit about having lost the capacity to enjoy the art -- no no, I still enjoy listening to the Beatles *with* all these anomalies in there. Because as Fletcher said, they are part of the charm of the track. They catch my ear, but don't detract.

Level: The comment about "paying ruthlessly for the tools to do it" is obviously aimed at the other person Fletcher was talking about with the $450k Hi Fi. Again, that's not me. I'm sitting here listening on Spirit Absolute Zero speakers and a Samson Servo amp. Hardly the top end of equipment, but they'll do me. As for other tools: Cooledit. I'm guessing some of you guys are surrounded by far more expensive equipment, so let's not continue
hurling irrelevant audiophile insults ...

Wireline: I don't think I'm really trying to second guess anyone. I'm not saying that any of it should have been recorded differently, better, whatever. Or that Paul should've written better lyrics, Ringo played more interestingly etc. I leave that to people with a real oversize ego! Occasionally, I have to admit that something is "just plain old wrong", and unless someone convinces me that it is some stroke of musical genius that I've failed to appreciate, then I'll stick with it.                

zmix: "Armchair quarterback of music?" and not creative. No, I can't sit down and write the next big hit. In fact, I don't really write much musically at all. I do play (keyboards, bass, guitar), sing a bit, I'm still at the "home recording" level of things. I let people who are better at it write stuff. Then, I tinker with it. That I *can* do. Re-word a clumsy vocal, fix a "what were you thinking, man?" harmony ... suggest different chords that are more interesting. I can get a reasonable recording down of the performance, and even do some turd polishing later if necessary. I'm not up there on the level of skill of you professionals, but certainly not an armchair quarterback. "Too perfect and it's a jingle" -- absolutely right. I even acknowledge that in the introduction, modern music has had all these things minutely battered out of it at the expense of having some decent music to listen to. I'm not happy about that either. On that, Fletcher and I seem to agree.

JJ: Yeah, that's a nutter you've got there. I get them too. I've had people tell me that it's really Elvis singing on "Oh Darling!", that they're channeling John Lennon and he has an announcement, that they've got some secret black box that can unmix mono tracks. I try and filter them out.

I don't go for the whole Paul Is Dead thing, or backwards hidden messages. I'm not that much of an obsessive! Smile

wwittman: Thanks, at last someone that's understood the site. You've got it!

Your point about things being fixed in subsequent releases is right on.

If it's all about the artist's intention, and who the hell am I to second guess etc... then who the hell are these jumped up producers and engineers at EMI who go round "fixing" these things and taking all the soul out of the music? Eh? The Beatles wanted it like that, leave it alone!

Oh hold on ...

It's because *some* of the things *are* just out and out mistakes. They weren't intended, no matter what people here might say. They may be part of the charm of the track, but if EMI are prepared to go round fixing them, I'd have to have some large brass balls to tell EMI that they should leave them there.

*Some* of the things were intended, and were just plain weird. Inventive but weird. Those are covered too, and explained where possible ... Fletcher seems to have failed to see those bits. It's not all about mistakes, guys!

I am not saying that these anomalies are failings. They are *there*. People are curious about them. People are curious as to what they are, and why they are there. I'm *not* mounting a campaign to fix them. I'm not sending copies of "What Goes On" to EMI demanding them to sort it out. In fact, it's a bit of a bugger when they go and fix them, as I have to keep up with which ones are no longer there. Hey ho ...

Also some of the contributors to What Goes On are producers or engineers that had something positive and constructive to add, and in fact enjoyed reading the site. They helped clear up some common misconceptions about recording processes etc. that had crept past me.

What Goes On has been offered as a FAQ reference document through the main Beatles USENET groups for years, and has been commented on and used by thousands of fans. They get it -- mostly. A few have had a knee-jerk reaction to it. People who believed it to be an anti-Beatle site designed to expose the crapness of the Beatles. Oh well, there you go. I've tried to set them straight, and sometimes it gets through. Hundreds of people have contributed to putting it together by submitting new entries and corrections. They also understand it's motive and content for what it actually is.

Fletcher, to summarise your extensive email: You don't like the site, because of the possible effect on up-and-coming people in the recording industry. So, I've asked you, and I also ask anyone else here :-

The claim is that the site may mislead new generations of engineers, producers, A&R people into thinking that perfection in recording, at the expense of all else, is the way forward for music. To the detriment of your careers, and the music industry.

How can I make it clearer that it is not a quest for perfection? I really don't want my motives to be misunderstood!

If anyone has anything constructive to add, then I'm quite happy to hear from you, contact details are on the website -- I'll also keep an eye on this thread.

P.S. If you "clicked on the link, but didn't read the site because you already knew what it was about", can you please look again having read the above, and give it a second chance?

Mike.                                      
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wwittman

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2005, 05:03:09 PM »

Well, as I've said.. I didn't see it as a call for obsessive perfectionism.


If anything, one could make the case that Beatles fanatics LOVE their easter egg mistakes and noises and inconsistencies almost as much as we love dissecting the opening chord to A Hard Day's Night.

So perhaps it's a site encouraging beginners to leave errors IN their work to be more "like The Beatles".


I'm just amazed no one sniped at me for my ball-peen hammer = SM-57 comment {g}
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William Wittman
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(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

Jonas as

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2005, 06:48:17 PM »

I kind of tought that site was pretty funny,
there are worse things than being obsessed with the Beatles Smile

One of the things we did when we had just got a new nice threated CR, and speakers was to sit down, get really piss drunk, let Itunes blast away from the "Beatles...EVERYTHING!" playlist,  and challenge each other on how many small anormalities we could hear wich we hadn't heard before, feeling a little blasfemic, then getting real sentimental and talk about how much better the Beatles was than anything else ever done.

On the case of how these things influence modern artists....
I recorded an album last fall for an "semi-famous" artist, obsessed with what he tought was perfection: perfect intonation, mathematically perfect timing, everything according to plan, not accepting anything not happening according to plan just because it sounded good. Being great wasn't good, if it wasn't planned.
The ornamentations in the vocals couldn't be used if it didn't change direction on an perfectly intonated pitch etc. He got us to use Autotune to analyze this, not to correct it, only so he could redo it if it didn't LOOK right.

The whole thing got pretty ridicoulus, spending 3 days on background vocals on one chorus..... only working on getting things "perfect". Not necessary to point out that any trace of "vibe" or "performance" had been lost a long time ago.
This time could have been spendt on rewriting the sucky lyrics, finding some  more innovative arrangements etc.

I sat down with him for a lunch break, asked him what music he liked..
Turns out a couple of the tracks from Abbey Road(my favourite record) was amongst  
the music he liked.
The producer and I made him sit down in the sweet spot and listen to Abbey Road twice.
1.time:"Have you ever heard this on really great speakers? it's quite an experience.."
He really enjoyed that, couldn't stop talking about it.

2.time:So the next day I asked him to listen trough it again, this time listening very closely for "errors".
Needless to say he  found lot's of them... Like "timing Issues" , "Intonation issues" , Instruments(especially the Bass) out if tune.  Backing vocals running in fifth paralells, George Harrison hitting the Mic while playing acoustic on Here comes the sun etc.

Thinking my point had gotten trough... he says "yeah, but we can't accept this today, the sound is so much better, everyone plays so much better, and our music is more advanced, there is so many good singers, I got to show everyone that i'm a good singer..."


I actually got very pissed, and said some stuff  way out of line towards the artist, ended up ruining that day....nothing done.....we almost lost the gig.....  had a meeting with the artist and label, got a second chance, and they got a bit smaller bill to pay.
Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad  Evil or Very Mad
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Otitis Media

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2005, 11:03:00 AM »

On older stuff, now that I know what I'm hearing, I hear mistakes and anomalies all the time.  The performance is always killer, and unless you know what you're hearing, the mistake becomes part of the performance and it lives as a historical document.  When you hear something that's been cleaned up, it sounds "not right".  

Thanks, Michael for taking the time to explain your reasons for the site.  Glad to hear that it's not a quest for "absolute perfection."  We've attained the ability to create absolute perfection in the studio, and our music now sucks.
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Dan Roth
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juno60

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2005, 04:01:20 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Sat, 12 March 2005 07:41

 if anything, the "technical imperfections" are part of the charm, part of the 'humanity' of the recording...



Exactly. And I think that's why they're being listed. Not as a criticism of the beatles but because of a love of the Beatles.

Its similar to geeks looking for discrepancies between episodes in Star Trek or English Profs looking for historical inaccuracies in Shakespeare. People who don't love and care passionately about a subject aren't going to spend their time dissecting it.

I'd think the site would be great for engineers as in the example Bora gave. When a client complains about a take being "imperfect" point them to this site as you try to explain that sometimes getting the energy and vibe of a take is much more important than technical perfection. (Of course they won't listen - as in Bora's case - but at least you'll have given it a good shot...)
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Lorin

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2005, 11:39:17 PM »

Fletcher wrote:

Low and  behold, there I am making a 'guest appearance' in the left speaker.  I looked at the mook with the "HiFi from hell" and said to him "great!! ... your system TOTALLY missed the intention of the production team on this music, which is directly misrepresenting the artists' wishes, and vision.




No fair blaming the snake oiler.

I totally get your point about using the rehearsal take and why you chose it.  I probably would too.

It's not the fault of the playback system that your voice was audible though.  In fact, it's pretty fucking impressive that this rig managed to reveal details that other systems masked!

So his system strips faults naked.  It doesn't mean the listener is gonna miss the musical intent.
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"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
 - Lorin David Schultz
   in the control room
   making even bad news sound good

Andy Simpson

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2005, 02:20:02 PM »

IF you think your control room mix is exactly and precisely the artists intention, you should mic-up your monitors/control room and print the mix. That way you can be sure that they don't hear what you can't hear.

Andy

PS. I probably ought to have put a smiley in there, but I really couldn't bring myself to. Wink
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maxim

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Re: Why is it you never have a ball peen hammer when you need one?
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2005, 09:31:41 PM »

i found it to be quite a useful tool to find  out about the fab five's production methods

a sort of inadvertent 'behind the scenes' episode
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