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Author Topic: Widening Stereo Image?  (Read 19864 times)

JohnMcD

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2005, 01:55:09 PM »

Quote:

Another way to make a widening tool is by just adding two faders to your stereo pair. Reverse the pans and reverse the polarities. This is mathematically equivalent to converting to MS and back to stereo, "on the fly". As you add them in, the overall level will go down and you will have to compensate; use grouping tools and it becomes easy. -Bob Katz-


Holy guacamole Mr. Katz!!! That is amazing! How did you figure this out? That is absolutely amazing. If you haven't noticed, I'm always excited by smart and novel ideas. And this has just made my year!

I can see why some people are considered great thinkers. But to visualize an idea by one is like the first sight of an illumination of lightning. All thoughts race to that instant, but what was captured with those eyes could never be spoken in words.

Absolutely brilliant. I wonder if Bob Ludwig knows about this?

-John
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bobkatz

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2005, 06:35:22 PM »

JohnMcD wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 13:55

Quote:

Another way to make a widening tool is by just adding two faders to your stereo pair. Reverse the pans and reverse the polarities. This is mathematically equivalent to converting to MS and back to stereo, "on the fly". As you add them in, the overall level will go down and you will have to compensate; use grouping tools and it becomes easy. -Bob Katz-


Holy guacamole Mr. Katz!!! That is amazing! How did you figure this out?





Thanks, Batman! It hit me one day and I played with it and said, "this works." Then I did the math and proved 100% that it is a simplification of the standard L+R = M and L-R =S formulas and how they are manipulated.

So, here's a quiz: What happens if you just slowly add in the two new faders whose pans are reversed, but DON'T reverse the polarities?  --- Answer---you are slowly making mono!  That is----you are adding in more and more center channel. When the second pair of faders are at the same level as the first you get 6 dB more level and perfect mono. But when you reverse the polarities, you are slowly removing the center channel instead, which is the same as removing M (or "making more S")...

BK
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2005, 08:28:22 PM »

JohnMcD wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 12:55

...I wonder if Bob Ludwig knows about this?
Probably, I was doing it on string sessions at Motown in 1969. Every amplification stage appearing on a balanced, double-plug patchbay is a wonderful thing. You learn to (not to mention have to...) patch up precisely what you need to do an optimal job.

Ronny

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2005, 09:23:56 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 20:28

JohnMcD wrote on Fri, 08 April 2005 12:55

...I wonder if Bob Ludwig knows about this?
Probably, I was doing it on string sessions at Motown in 1969. Every amplification stage appearing on a balanced, double-plug patchbay is a wonderful thing. You learn to (not to mention have to...) patch up precisely what you need to do an optimal job.



No doubt BL knows about, it's basic M-S. Engineers started finding out about it when stereo systems were first being introduced. Some of the pioneers like Lester Polfus probably knew about it earlier, I figure that he stumbled across the phenomenon soon after he developed the multi-track recorder and built his first studio, it was 3 channel.
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compasspnt

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2005, 02:54:28 AM »

I have found only one way to truly widen a stereo image without losing anything in the centre, or acquiring phase problems.  But is is somewhat physical.  It involves picking up speakers and moving them, and an extension of cables......
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George_

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2005, 03:26:59 AM »

ok, we're here in highend, but if it's allowed, and ok, i would recommend testing the waves S1. It's a plugin (VST, RTAS, DX) and if you are a computer nerd, you should check it out.. way too expensive, but with accurate results.. +10% wider is ok... the rest is for experimental music..Wink(

works great on blackmetal and deathmetal productions.. also some industrial, if you keep the bassdrum separate..
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dcollins

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2005, 11:05:06 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 11 April 2005 23:54

I have found only one way to truly widen a stereo image without losing anything in the centre, or acquiring phase problems.  But is is somewhat physical.  It involves picking up speakers and moving them, and an extension of cables......



This has also been my experience!  But you sure hear a lot about it.  I think some clients even think this is a standard part of "modern" mastering.........

DC

invisibl

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 01:58:45 AM »

Umm.. I am either gonna get ignored or squashed here...

But stupid is as stupid does, so.......

( Note. Usual disclaimers cos I AINT a m*stering guy. Just a guy who m*sters stuff for friends and the like)

In PT ( yes I hear the cringe) I tried to accomplish widening a track at the request of a Friend but lets call her a client. She makes dance/lounge electronic music, with a few acoustic elements thrown in here and there and is slowly but surely getting better in mixing her own projects. But She had a terrible sounding room and monitors so usually made thin dark sounding mixes

So I started to set up a session that was basically in a parallel processing format. with the intent to get a higher RMS feeling track.

Trying alternately the S1, T-rax and  then the DUY yeilded so so results. As described earlier basically, a smearing of the Kik and other center percussive elements occured and I was not feeling great about what was happening to the track.

So after a while I wondered that because the center elements were mainly under say 1000 Hz or so perhaps I could apply the widening to an EQ'ed/ Hpassed track and not have the same negative effect occur to the middle.

in essence I made a parallel ssetup up that contained 3 streams of processing with the first as a mainly untouched track, The second as a "bass enhancing track" more or less panned to mono and a third as a gentle bandpassed widening track.

Obviously the 3 aux buses that the plugins were inserted  on had identical plugs both in kind and amount to avoid phase cancellation and as a safety I had the music on another track with no processing on so I could A/B against it to make sure I wasnt to f*cked up by over processing. ( yes It was level checked )

After a wee while I had a kind of sweetening of the top end and had brought out a little more low to mid attack and she was happy.

I dont have a formal education in this discipline and am probably overlooking some major BooBoo, but it didnt sound too bad and played well in both the car and Boombox..(even with Super mega HyperTurbo Maxx bass applied, as you do)

Did I do Bad??
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MIKE HUNT

masterhse

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2005, 08:55:18 AM »

Sounds essentially like M/S processing to me.

If it sounds better, you done good.
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Tom Volpicelli
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maxim

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2005, 06:27:35 AM »

terry wrote:
Quote:

I have found only one way to truly widen a stereo image without losing anything in the centre, or acquiring phase problems. But is is somewhat physical. It involves picking up speakers and moving them, and an extension of cables......


just being facetious, but you will lose something in the center if you do that

perhaps, if you push them closer together, you might overcompensate by making your mixes wider than usual
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Yannick Willox

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2005, 08:17:26 AM »

No,no.
What you have to do is put the two speakers next to each other.
Then make a broadband absorbing baffle that starts between the two speakers end ends on your nose (you can even make a cutout for your face).

This way you have no cross-talk, and a 120-180 degress wide stereo stage (like headphones, but out of your head).
(you can try this with a really long pillow, or a matress)

But try mastering like this with a client in the same room ...

Shocked
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Yannick Willox
Acoustic Recording Service

compasspnt

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2005, 08:41:04 AM »

Yannick Willox wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 08:17

No,no.
What you have to do is put the two speakers next to each other.
Then make a broadband absorbing baffle that starts between the two speakers end ends on your nose (you can even make a cutout for your face).

This way you have no cross-talk, and a 120-180 degress wide stereo stage (like headphones, but out of your head).
(you can try this with a really long pillow, or a matress)

But try mastering like this with a client in the same room ...

Shocked

Yannick,

Can you post a photograph of yourself employing this technique?  I'd like to try it, but I want a demonstration for a guide first!
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compasspnt

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2005, 08:42:39 AM »

maxim wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 06:27

terry wrote:
Quote:

I have found only one way to truly widen a stereo image without losing anything in the centre, or acquiring phase problems. But is is somewhat physical. It involves picking up speakers and moving them, and an extension of cables......


just being facetious, but you will lose something in the center if you do that

perhaps, if you push them closer together, you might overcompensate by making your mixes wider than usual


Don't be stupid Max.  As the speakers are widened, to maintain the centre, you must toe them in more and more, eventually even facing towards each other.
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maxim

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2005, 08:49:30 PM »

peerhaps, i could stretch my ears with fishing hooks and rubber bands
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Yannick Willox

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Re: Widening Stereo Image?
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2005, 05:27:27 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 14:41

Can you post a photograph of yourself employing this technique?  I'd like to try it, but I want a demonstration for a guide first!


Sorry, I didn't take pictures, and my experimental setup no longer exists. 1/ I moved and 2/ the results were so frighteningly good that I had to abandon the tests. The mono image was less colored than a typical stereo setup (less crosstalk between L and R ears), the image was huge and very precise. Anyway, you can't work like this with someone else in the room...

Anyway, the pictures would look extremely silly, and I don't look so good in profile  Laughing
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Yannick Willox
Acoustic Recording Service
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