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Author Topic: 2buss comps  (Read 21918 times)

Hallams

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2005, 08:06:23 pm »

I would like to hear some opinions on the Avalon 747 as a stereo buss comp. As i mentioned in an earlier post i like the frequency dependant options that can be dialed in with it. I have never felt comfortable using multi band compressors but find the Avalons  ability to dial in a bit more comp on the highs or lows a big advantage. As i havent had a lot of experiance at comparing different  buss compressors it would be interesting to hear some opinions more educated than mine.
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Chris Hallam.
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compasspnt

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2005, 10:05:04 pm »

This will have to come from someone else, because I am not a fan of the Avalons.  I'm sure there are many who are, though.
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wwittman

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2005, 09:23:48 am »

Not me.
Another company I think has brilliant marketing way beyond their audio quality.

I quite agree with Bob about mixing (ESPECIALLY) and now mastering too often being remedial.
Or heroic interventions; when such things shouldn't be called for in the first place.
It rarely if ever turns out well and certainly not as well as if it had been done right to begin with.

But I'm not so sure I agree on the reason for the profifertaion of NS-10's or other similarly lousy speakers.

I'm on record as believing that nothng works as well as big monitors in a well designed room.. so that you can really HEAR all you're putting on tape/harddisk.

But for a very long time, engineers listened on little cubes or small speakers in the desk or even on home radios wired to act as speakers only, in an effort to get a radio or "real world" reference.
Then Bob Clearmountain was very vocal about his use of the Yamaha (with its tissue mod) and soon everyone HAD to have them.
Although Bob, to his credit, always said it worked for HIM, not that it should be a standard.
One audio magazine at the time even ran an article by some guy comparing the TYPES of tissue used on Yamaha tweeters.
Which makes suggesting preamps for particular microphones start to sound almost sane. (well, almost)

The difference was that originally the idea was to use a small speaker as an alternative reference.
Not to replace REAL monitors with crappy consumer speakers.

Where, exactly, along the way all that went terribly wrong, I don't know.
But like most things in audio, I suspect it has to do with money.

How many studios do you see now where their ONLY monitors are a set of Genelecs?
These people are not going to spend the money for Augspurgers, let alone for George himself to make the room right, when the conventional wisdom is that they 'don't need to'.

As far as custom mastering... well I remember that differently as well.
Some labels ran good mastering facilities.
I quite happily had records mastered at the Abbey Road cutting room and they had talented engineers and did a great job.

But I also had records completely butchered (FAR from a straight transfer) by the Columbia/CBS cutting room in NY and it was clear that developing a relationship with a mastering engineer with some artistry and a better attitude was in my interest.
If that's "custom mastering" then it was a major improvement for me and my records.

Example:
I remember one record that we had mastered at Sterling for the LP release, but it was CBS policy to have their cassette masters done in house.
So we sent over a Sterling EQ'd copy to CBS and they made the cassettes.
Then when we got the commercial releases, the first 8 seconds of intro had been cut off!
Apparently the genius over there had decided that the acoustic stuff in the front was an outtake (on the EQ'd copy) and took it upon himself to cut it off.

THAT'S why we didn't use the label mastering when we could avoid it.
Not because I expected George Marino to finish my mix for me.
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William Wittman
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(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

Bob Olhsson

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2005, 10:15:04 am »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 08:23

...These people are not going to spend the money for Augspurgers, let alone for George himself to make the room right, when the conventional wisdom is that they 'don't need to'...
This is because for over 20 years most of the "conventional wisdom" has been coming from MIX and audio dealers. George doesn't advertise or sell his services in either so as far as the "pro-audio" industry is concerned, the man hardly exists.

slicraider

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2005, 11:01:59 am »

Quote:

Would you mind writing a bit more about your freq dependent compression technique? What console are you using when you do this, how do you go about the patching, what compressors you use for which bands, etc.....


Terry,

Steveeastend and I have the same basic approach using the J9000 and it's four stereo busses. Occasionally I will strap some type of exciter across a buss and add a small amount to the L/R along with the compressed busses but those cases are rare. The real key for my approach is to keep the low frequency stuff out of the main compression buss so that it doesn't pump. Sometimes I compress the lows but often I don't and I just send them straight to the L/R buss.

Sorry to respond so late but I have been busy employing this technique.  Cool

Rick
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2005, 11:22:12 am »

slicraider wrote on Mon, 21 March 2005 10:01

... The real key for my approach is to keep the low frequency stuff out of the main compression buss so that it doesn't pump. ...
Another reason I think this approach is better is that a compressor isn't setting the balance so another one isn't as likely to be disrupting it.

stevieeastend

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2005, 11:41:20 am »

Hallams,

IMO the Avalon 747 is one of the units, which does not translate the whole frequency bandwith the way it should be.  It is just does not feel right to me. It is not that like having the mix just compressed with a little sound colour, which you get f.e. with the SSL, API, Manley. When using the Avalon it feels like that the whole frequency picture changes in a unnatural way IMO. If you like the sound of the unit, I think its better to use during the mix on certain instruments...
It would work for some commercial purpose, demos and such for sure but if you want to go for the best sound possible I would not go for it...
But it is also a question which desk you are using and for what purpose as well, I think....

cheers
steveeastend

J.J. Blair

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2005, 06:15:12 pm »

If you don't mind giving away your secrets,  could you be specific about how you achieve your freq dependent compression.  The explanation was a little vague for me.  Thanks.

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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

stevieeastend

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2005, 01:26:20 pm »

J.J., I don?t know if you were refering to me but the way I do it is for sure nothing new or a secret. I also think "freqency wise compression" is a little too much but anyway...

At the end of a mix I  fire in the stereo compressor of the SSL stereo bus more often than not. Adjust release and attack etc.. But sometimes, with some tempo or music style you get the feeling that the attack of the bass and bassdrum gets kind of washed as the character of the SSL compressor got a kind of pumping, "making everything warm and together" character, IMO.
It can be sometimes hard to achieve the nice colour you get from this compressor AND have the bass and bassdrum still stay tight, especially in electronic and dance.
So in order to get the bass and bassdrum out of the rest, you route all your channels to bus A and the bass and bassdrum to bus B.
Now you copy the same settings you used for the stereo bus compressor, which did not work,  to bus A compressor and B compressor, which is possible as you got one for each bus. (A,B,C and stereo bus). Then you turn the stereo bus compressor off. Then you leave the settings, you have made for the stereo bus compressor on the bus A compressor as you liked that before. On the bus B compressor you adjust the threshold until you like the setting for the bass and the bassdrum, adjusting ratio and release  I find a little dangerous as my paranoid ears found that they would then kind of fight with the other tracks in a "stereo-compressor-wise-way". Smile So this would be a very careful way of treating the bass and bassdrum differently in stereo bus compression as the rest of the tracks. Just the threshold would be then  a little different as I do not compress the bus too heavily anyway. But many small steps sometimes make a big difference in the end.

Another possibilty is to send the bass and bassdrum straight to the stereo bus and not to bus B. As the stereo bus compressor is turned off, bass and bass drum will stay uncompressed "stereowise" in comparison to the rest of the track.
So you got the settings you liked for the track for all channels expect the bass and bassdrum and so kept the low stuff tighter.

cheers
steveeastend

stevieeastend

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2005, 01:35:38 pm »

BTW

Sending the bass AND the bassdrum was just an example as I used it that way for some electronic and dance stuff, which had nothing to do with mainstream rock music. What you send to which bus depends heavily on the music style and the tempo of the song, IMO. I got really no idea how this approach would work for rock but I will be mixing two rock songs next week and will try it out.

cheers
steveeastend

John Ivan

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2005, 10:17:16 am »

Hey all, What a great thread.

I don't have a good enough comp to put on the buss. I have mixed in rooms that did and after listening and mixing a few tunes with compression, I went back to none. My mastering guy thanks me. I compress the drum bus minus the overheads sometimes and I have compressors that I like on certain things. In a way, I do stem's but, I blend them myself. I do a backing vocal buss, a drum buss. On rock music I will buss all the guitars except solos into one of my Altecs,and so on. I just find that if I work at getting things to sit right without compression the masters come back in better shape. The broadcast chain beats everything to death these days anyhow { some of my stuff has made the radio in England and in the mid west !! YEA!!! ;-} }. This is just how I work. Lot's of folks get great results WITH it so, it's a matter of taste. right?

It's so cool to read all these heavys around here..
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slicraider

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2005, 08:40:04 pm »

Quote:

I got really no idea how this approach would work for rock but I will be mixing two rock songs next week and will try it out.


OH yea I think this works great for rock.

Rick
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J.J. Blair

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2005, 12:38:40 pm »

Steve, thanks.  I gotcha.  They way you guys were talking about it, I thought that you may have had some type of sidechain going to a signal with the bass rolled off or something.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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