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Author Topic: 2buss comps  (Read 21850 times)

Hallams

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2005, 05:48:26 pm »

J.J. wrote on Sat, 12 March 2005 18:17

What I find I achieve withe stereo compression is a few things:

I also like the way it gets the bass a litle tighter sounding.  Finally, the subtle pump caused by the kick or snare hits really makes rock records pump, whici I think if anything adds dynamic, rather than limiting it.


I really like the Avalon 747 for this with its spectral comp options, and as others mentioned, only one or two db. I also like how the purple light lets you know it is working when the vu doesn't register as often a very subtle ammount is all that is needed
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Andy Simpson

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2005, 07:30:09 pm »

Over the last couple of days I've been mixing a classical quartet that I tracked in the most incredibly dry rehearsal room. The results of which I have subjected to various mix approaches including, leaving the mix dry, and adding differing amounts of reverb.

Now, because my ear does not like the ridiculous dynamic range of a close-mic'd and vigourously sawed violin or two, I have been trying a limiter on the mix buss.

This has clarified massively what I had only known previously by instinct....that limiting on the mix buss is very unnatural to the ear if the mix has any reverberation....which is to say that the ear is very sensitive to the proper natural decay of reverberation.

On even a slightly wet mix I can barely limit 1-2dB before the mix starts pumping and sounding terrible (makes my ears jump and the image goes to shit), yet I still have at least 5 dB too much range on the violins for my fragile ears....

However, I can limit the bone dry mix by 5-10dB and take away the 'nasty' upper dynamics of the violins, and it sounds lovely, intimate and rich (to my ear!). So I can crank the monitors and get inside the performance beautifully, without having my head taken off by the violent violins.....

Then I take the limited mix and post-apply the 'verb (although at a lesser amount) and it sounds perfectly natural....

Which leads me to the notion that the mastering guy can't possibly do any kind of mix-buss limiting/comp without completely screwing the reverbs/delays in the mix.....and that the best place for limiting is pre-reverb.....and definately pre-mastering.

I'm sure most of you already know this, but it's a bit of a realisation for me. Wink

And anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing a master cellist from 3 ft away in a quiet dry room will understand why I love the dry, limited and imtimate sound. So.                                                      

Andy

PS I know that some of you 'classical' engineers would balk at the idea of close mic'ing & limiting classical music, but loud violins make me flinch (like a vented picolo snare) - but I do like to get close to a cello....and a little limiting can help to tame a violin that also moved quite alot in respect to the position of the mic and was played very vigourously!

Wink
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wwittman

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2005, 08:27:10 pm »

I'm with you, Terry.

or at least stunningly indecisive.

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William Wittman
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drumsound

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2005, 09:12:53 pm »

andy_simpson wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 18:30

Over the last couple of days I've been mixing a classical quartet that I tracked in the most incredibly dry rehearsal room. The results of which I have subjected to various mix approaches including, leaving the mix dry, and adding differing amounts of reverb.

Now, because my ear does not like the ridiculous dynamic range of a close-mic'd and vigourously sawed violin or two, I have been trying a limiter on the mix buss.

This has clarified massively what I had only known previously by instinct....that limiting on the mix buss is very unnatural to the ear if the mix has any reverberation....which is to say that the ear is very sensitive to the proper natural decay of reverberation.

On even a slightly wet mix I can barely limit 1-2dB before the mix starts pumping and sounding terrible (makes my ears jump and the image goes to shit), yet I still have at least 5 dB too much range on the violins for my fragile ears....

However, I can limit the bone dry mix by 5-10dB and take away the 'nasty' upper dynamics of the violins, and it sounds lovely, intimate and rich (to my ear!). So I can crank the monitors and get inside the performance beautifully, without having my head taken off by the violent violins.....

Then I take the limited mix and post-apply the 'verb (although at a lesser amount) and it sounds perfectly natural....

Which leads me to the notion that the mastering guy can't possibly do any kind of mix-buss limiting/comp without completely screwing the reverbs/delays in the mix.....and that the best place for limiting is pre-reverb.....and definately pre-mastering.

I'm sure most of you already know this, but it's a bit of a realisation for me. Wink

And anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing a master cellist from 3 ft away in a quiet dry room will understand why I love the dry, limited and imtimate sound. So.                                                      

Andy

PS I know that some of you 'classical' engineers would balk at the idea of close mic'ing & limiting classical music, but loud violins make me flinch (like a vented picolo snare) - but I do like to get close to a cello....and a little limiting can help to tame a violin that also moved quite alot in respect to the position of the mic and was played very vigourously!

Wink



Wouldn't it be easier to set up a sub group with a compressor on it and then use those channels for reverb send?  That way you don't need to do two passes.  It would all happen within one mix.
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wwittman

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2005, 09:34:24 pm »

THis reminds me of somethig I USED to do all the time...

back when quad consoles were common <g>, I used to set up a stereo compressor (usually the A&DR Compex) on the REAR quad insert.

Since the console automatically folded the four busses together to make the stereo master outs, it was in effect summing the compressor into the mix.

Then I would send a tone evenly to all 4 groups and try to match the compressor level to the uncompressed front busses.

Now, during the mix, I could use the quad pans to send the tracks only to the front (uncompressed), only to the rear (compressed) or anywhere in-between.

So if I had most of the band in the compressor I might slide the vocal forward OUT of the compression a bit and I could let the reverb returns and other effects be totally uncompressed..
It was an easy way to play with the amount of compression on each mix element.

I know some mixers do similar things with sub groups and return faders of groups of compressors, but this was an EASY way to think about it... using the quad panners.

I know I mixed Time After Time that way, for example, sliding the Linn Shaker out of the compressor so it just floated in front the whole time, but leaving the synth pads in. and so on.

I hadn't thought about it in years.. until now.
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William Wittman
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Norwood

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2005, 11:50:21 pm »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 18:34



I know I mixed Time After Time that way...


Holy crap, you mixed that... one of my favorites.
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Michael Norwood
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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2005, 11:59:42 pm »

JJ mentioned he likes an 1178 ...man I have no idea how you make that work for you

lately I have been not doing any 2 buss compressing
or less and less
I find my mixes more open and more rewarding  with the least amount of buss compression
it seems that with very dense mixes, the more buss compression, the easier to mix but after the fact i don't like my mixes as much

i do use the original Smart c1 and it has that sound if i want it
or the 33609 but in general
i do a lot of rides and use a lot of sub-master compression and blend it all together
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jwhynot

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2005, 12:37:53 am »

I'm the same way ross - lately doing everything with greater and greater simplicity.  I love the sound of a mix fighting its way out of compression, but in the long run I most often go for the subtler or non-compressed approach.

I still have it plugged in tho'!

I also love the compex as a back-buss, especially on drums.  I've been using the Manley Variable-mu that way, more for the whole mix - funny as far as Manley comps goes that's still my favorite use for them - tucked in as a muscle builder on the back buss.

That and the1178 have somehow never floated my boat as a straight stereo comp.  I know lots of other folks make it work...

JW
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drumsound

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2005, 03:27:31 am »

Norwood wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 22:50

wwittman wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 18:34



I know I mixed Time After Time that way...


Holy crap, you mixed that... one of my favorites.


Time After Time is a great one sir.  I love the harmony.
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Brian Kehew

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2005, 08:10:26 am »

EVERYTHING on that album is great - the songs, the choices of sounds, the balances, the character. Seemingly underrated, but I know it has tons of fans....
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wwittman

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2005, 10:54:52 am »

Well not patting myself on the back, but making a point:
Which is, it's well RECORDED (if I do say so <g>) so mixing is a doddle.

Under-rated?
Well in some ways.., but it did sell 6 million in the US and probably 10 round the world... so not exactly unnoticed!

MY contributions are CLEARLY underrated,. however.<g>

Interestingly enough, that album was the LAST one I ever mixed without automation.

but thanks, Brian
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William Wittman
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Norwood

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2005, 02:18:49 pm »

wwittman wrote on Tue, 15 March 2005 07:54

Interestingly enough, that album was the LAST one I ever mixed without automation.


You have talked about doing fader rides while tracking, do you think this makes a project easier to mix(without automation)?  It seems like it would.
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Michael Norwood
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Tomas Danko

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2005, 02:40:13 pm »

drumsound wrote on Tue, 15 March 2005 08:27

Norwood wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 22:50

wwittman wrote on Mon, 14 March 2005 18:34



I know I mixed Time After Time that way...


Holy crap, you mixed that... one of my favorites.


Time After Time is a great one sir.  I love the harmony.


Oh man, I listen to that song several times every week. Still.

Thank you!

All the best,

Tomas Danko
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Brian Kehew

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2005, 03:29:13 pm »

'Underrated' in that no one's mentioned it to me in the last 5 years, but people have mentioned the MC5 about three dozen times, a band with NO good albums!

As a production, the first Cyndi LP should be "up there". I still find the first Madonna album to be the best as well, whoever wrote and arranged those songs... clever synth programming on both, supporting the song.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: 2buss comps
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2005, 03:57:14 pm »

You know who likes 1178s, although not on the 2 buss.  Clearmountain.  He has a bunch of them.

The only difference I've noticed between using a pair of 1176LNs and an 1178 is that somehow, the IC front end of the 1178 actually makes the bass more defined.  And like I said, the reason that it works for me if because I use just a little bit and I use it make the mix pump, get the bass tightened and bring the vocal more in front.  I'm not using it to make the mix sound more finished.  If I wanted that, I'd use my Manley Vari-MU.  I usually use that for overheads for my parallel compression tracks, that I sneak up with the non compressed overheads.
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