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Author Topic: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks  (Read 34879 times)

bblackwood

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2005, 08:29:40 am »

Level wrote on Mon, 28 February 2005 20:23

Beleive me, the compressors that started this shit reside in stand alone CD recorders and also the panasonic SV3700/3800 DAT machines.

There are no limiters in the Panasonic 3700/3800 DAT machines.
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Brad Blackwood
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Otitis Media

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2005, 12:22:37 pm »

mark fassett wrote on Tue, 01 March 2005 21:43

I listened to Green Day's "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" song today on my local radio station, and it actually sounded OK until the loud guitars came in... and it was the strangest thing, the vocals were ducking each time a the guitars hit a note.  In short, it was pathetic.  I don't know how loud this record is compared to others, but the labels don't realize how shitty this loudness wars is making their songs sound on the radio.  It's HORRIBLE.  Same thing with the Maroon 5 CD, which sounded very bad on the radio too.  


Yes, I was horrified as well when I heard that tune on my local radio here in Boston.  BCN just beats the shit out of everything with their broadcast chain.  If you listen to the disc, Boulevard sounds really good.  The whole album sounds good, IMHO.  It's loud as fuck, and has that aggressive L-A sound, but it works.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2005, 01:36:17 pm »

David Schober, you keep insisting on their being too much compression on the original track.  I think you missed where I said there were three distorted electric guitar chugging eighth notes the entire way through the song.  Of course the waveform is going to look compressed, because there is very little dynamic.  The point is that with recursive processing, there are zero transients and the dynamics are even less.
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canada

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2005, 01:54:10 pm »

mark fassett wrote on Tue, 01 March 2005 21:43

I listened to Green Day's "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" song today on my local radio station, and it actually sounded OK until the loud guitars came in... and it was the strangest thing, the vocals were ducking each time a the guitars hit a note.  In short, it was pathetic.  I don't know how loud this record is compared to others, but the labels don't realize how shitty this loudness wars is making their songs sound on the radio.  It's HORRIBLE.  Same thing with the Maroon 5 CD, which sounded very bad on the radio too.  


Not to mention the vocals were pitched to hell and back on that Green Day record.  And that albums took a Grammy...  I sometimes wonder if I'm the only idiot on this planet that can tell that most vocals are pitch corrected and devoid of emotion.  I heard an R&B tune the other day that sounded like Kraftwerk for chrissakes.  The dude was souling out, technically better than Marvin Gaye, but you know in the booth the guy sounded like shit, American Idol style.  Then, to put icing on the cake, they blast it through some compression so that it never sounds pensive or dark.  These days, it has to be hot hot, louder than the rest.  I'm wondering when mixes will sound like 4 bit resolution nintendo tracks... you can get some real volume from four bit dithering!
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dcollins

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2005, 03:22:58 pm »

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 02 March 2005 05:29

Level wrote on Mon, 28 February 2005 20:23

Beleive me, the compressors that started this shit reside in stand alone CD recorders and also the panasonic SV3700/3800 DAT machines.

There are no limiters in the Panasonic 3700/3800 DAT machines.



And the 7000 series of Sony DAT machines had input level controls, so it's all a mystery!

DC

Level

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2005, 04:36:23 pm »

If you take the analog input of the SV3700/3800 and crank it up into the red and use the digital out, you will see the limiter in action.

I have 2 of them and both do this.
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JGreenslade

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2005, 04:51:44 pm »

wolffy wrote on Tue, 01 March 2005 19:59

 
It seems that AE's are not the only ones noticing...

snip

Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine



The comments tend to reinforce the notion expressed by myself in a previous post that the loudness war has devalued the currency of Audio Engineer in the eyes of a valuable group.

Justin



Before CD burners had limiters:

Taken from: Davies Lecture (late '30s in lecture order):   http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/15099/998/?SQ=6 a6d32815a8a07f3a193e31d71f71a58#msg_15099

Quote:


Sean then described an early limiter designed by RCA using a variable
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mark fassett

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2005, 07:27:13 pm »

Otitis Media wrote on Wed, 02 March 2005 09:22

If you listen to the disc, Boulevard sounds really good.  The whole album sounds good, IMHO.  It's loud as fuck, and has that aggressive L-A sound, but it works.



Well, no offense, but I listened to the CD version today, and it is also too loud... way too loud.  That's for my taste, anyway.

More important and to my original point, if it sounds that bad on the radio, can anyone consider it a well mastered recording?  Isn't the role of a mastering engineer to make sure the recording sounds as good as possible in a wide variety of situations?  

Before you answer it's not the mastering engineer's responsibility, I say hogwash.  I think, IMHO, a mastering engineer should have an Optimod (or whatever multiband compressor or signal chain they're using these days, it's been many years since I was in radio) in the room, to demonstrate for the idiots who are making the decision exactly how shitty this is going to sound on the radio.  
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dcollins

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2005, 07:48:17 pm »

Level wrote on Wed, 02 March 2005 13:36

If you take the analog input of the SV3700/3800 and crank it up into the red and use the digital out, you will see the limiter in action.

I have 2 of them and both do this.


It's not a limiter, it just that the digital out isn't showing overs.

DC

Level

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2005, 09:07:51 pm »

It certainly acts like a brickwall filter from hell.

What do you call a device that allows you to keep punching up the gain and the peaks stay the same??

Compresson and limiting.
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bblackwood

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2005, 09:22:44 pm »

Level wrote on Wed, 02 March 2005 20:07

It certainly acts like a brickwall filter from hell.

What do you call a device that allows you to keep punching up the gain and the peaks stay the same??

Compresson and limiting.

No, Bill, it's simply called clipping.

There are no limiters in these machines.
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Brad Blackwood
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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2005, 10:25:13 pm »

The waves are not squared off like a clip. No red digital lights saying "over".(post input...after SV) The rms Is brought way the hell up.

Try it. You get no argument from me. I would never use it like that anyway (professionally)...but it has been done. I have real equipment to give real results and not a stinky use of a box for making things ugly.

MY POINT..is it has been used this way to jack up the level.

11 years ago I saw it actually. I visit certain small project studios that used it this way and I have to take the Louisville slugger out and teach.

The wave shape looks just like what you get from compression and limiting...it does not "crack" or clip violently.

Look and you will see.

Just hook it up and look will ya??

I hate being called a liar when I know better. Scotty, you there??

    http://www.tangible-technology.com/audiobasics/levels/level. html
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David Schober

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2005, 12:34:51 am »

Does anybody still use a DAT anymore?  

My 3800 had been nothing but a CD player stand for the last three years or more.  

I think it still works, but if I ever have a DAT arrive to be played I'm going to play an older tape for a bit to make sure it doesn't decide to make a lunch out of the client's tape.
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David Schober

Level

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2005, 01:03:12 am »

The beginnings of the DAT (portion of) discussion was about the useage 11 years ago.

I use mine at times as a client sends them. Either the Sony 7050 or the 3700. The 3800 is about to be tossed.
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bblackwood

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Re: stop the madness!: proof that brickwall limiting sucks
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2005, 05:40:31 am »

Level wrote on Wed, 02 March 2005 21:25


The wave shape looks just like what you get from compression and limiting...it does not "crack" or clip violently.

Look and you will see.

Just hook it up and look will ya??

No need, Bil - I worked at a three room facility that only printed to DAT for 5 years before they switched to Masterlinks, mastering virtually everything that came through there. I am intimately familiar with the action of the 3700 and 3800, and there is no limiter in the path, regardless of analog or digital input. That's 14 different DAT machines, none of which exhibited the behavior you are describing

You must have a special machine.
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Brad Blackwood
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