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[Phil]

[lucey]

I master for a job rate or an hourly.

Occasionally I engineer for a day rate.

Sometimes I produce and engineer for a fee and IF I can get them, points.  These preclude immediate payment of what value is being traded, as if it's a creative wager we're in together.  If it sells big enough, we all win.  If not, I got the day rate to live on.

I would not expect Steve to ever take points as he works another way.  I would expect some people to rightly take a wager fee as a co-creator.  And there are lots of other cases that are probably just as screwed up as one could imagine.

Sting pays his manager around 50% if I recall ... and he's not complaining.  Every deal is different, just let it be.



-----
And Eric please chill out.  Your egocentric and ubiquitous diatribe that analog tape is dying is not only insulting and arrogant, it's ignorant to the extreme as not 2 hours from your chair the new hub of tape is building right now.  Further, saying Steve's on a Jihad is insensitive to the present at best, completely inflaming at least ... and personal.   Then you accuse others of turning it  "personal"?   Get real, you're the defensive one here.

And keep your word.   If you're really "out" then go away like you said.   I began the 'Religion of Analog' tag on some of Steve's more extreme views (which ironically, I share in the most part) so I'm calling a penalty for taking the 'Religion' analogy too far.  "Jihad" is not a joke, or a quip.  It's an inhuman lunacy of death and murderous intentions.  It's time to woe back, saying "Jihad" is like a "Hitler" reference ... it has no place in a recording argument.  

Let's take a breath here dude ... as you are you and I am me and Steve is he and we all live together.

[pipelineaudio]

Mr Steve Albini, every time I read a post from you, it strikes me how similarly we approach this business ( at least it seems to me on the surface). As long as I make 50 bucks a day when there is work, and as long as my customers come from other customers, with me doing no advertising whatsoever, and as long as people trust me, I am happy

however

I think you do not see the situation that many of the posters in this thread are talking about. I know in my place, bands come in looking for a studio to "record " in and an "engineer to record them"

I put these in quotes for very good reason.

VERY often, you have to teach the band how to tune their drums, then tune them for them. Then you must teach the guitarist how to intonate and sometimes even how to tune his guitar.

Then you have to teach the singer how to sing.

This is not me dictating to them, this is the band bringing in examples of what they want to sound like, then thinking I will hit a magic button that will transform their drivel into the examples they brought.

Many times you must show the guitarist how to play, I kid you not. You must also come up with guitar and almost ALWAYS vocal harmonies, if not vocal lines

The projects run WAY over the hours they could budget for because of all this unpreparedness, and thisa is AFTER you talk to them months before, see them play and write suggestions of what to work on

so you have to eat these hours for free! At least *I* choose to, for many reasons.

But there is no way you can say I wasnt a major part of the band's creative and performing force, especially when other "events" need to happen to fix the music that probably dont need to be gone into.

SO while I dont ask for points or deals of any kind, and in fact, consider it a part of my personal service, I can see why many of these people feel rightly that they deserve compensation.

If they are going through the same thing as me then I think they really should expect at least an offer.

I think Steve and correct me if Im wrong, that you are an archivist, you record moments in time. Great bands come in, you get the best of them ( as you did before and after with Stereotyperider/Mandingo before and after albums I did with them, one of the high points in my life I might add), and you record their performance.

Well that just isnt the case with most of what I deal with. I either need to create and / or manufacture those "performances".

I suspect this is what the other posters on this thread have to do as well, and I think this is why they feel they are entitled to what they are asking.

I would ask too, but Im a bum. No amount of money will change this, and so a bum I will be

[Bob Olhsson]

My understanding is that the practice of producer points started with producers putting up most, if not all of the recording expense prior to the artist getting signed. Likewise engineer points started out as a means of an artist affording an engineer who wouldn't otherwise be affordable.

While obviously points can be and many times probably are abused, it's also a fact that a band often has much more important things that they ought to be investing their resources in than their recording. Given a choice between paying points or paying credit card interest, points can be a pretty good deal in many instances.

[Curve Dominant]

lucey wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 06:21

Eric please chill out.... Let's take a breath here dude ... as you are you and I am me and Steve is he and we all live together.

Brian,

I liked that part of your post. The rest was reading way too much into all this. Really.

But, anyway, thanks Brian. I understand and appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, and apologize if my means of communicating seems caustic.

But you know I'm not the only guilty one in that regard, and I take issue with this "group-think" that leads everyone to assume that the people with the most hours logged on a tape machine are automatically right all the time, especially when it comes to the macro-economics of this industry.

Does a bass player automatically know more than a cook?

Let's not even go there. Not relevant.

[Curve Dominant]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 06:31

Given a choice between paying points or paying credit card interest, points can be a pretty good deal in many instances.

Every single one of my clients will agree with you 100%. Especially since most of them do not even have credit cards, let alone cash.

Many if not most of the commercial studio clients are truly the "vanity projects" - trust fund brats who can afford the rates.

For those of us who choose to record the street-level talent, points on eventual success is the only possible income we will ever see for our work. And it is not guaranteed. Good thing I can cook!

[JamSync]

electrical wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 02:28

Why can't all these people just earn their own money instead of trying to sift it from the puny amount that filters down to the bands?

Because most of them are lawyers...

[RMoore]

Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 02:36

Anyone who has recieved an interest payment from a bank account, or a dividend from a stock, bond or MMA, KNOWS why the producer gets a percentage of the sales of the product he helped produced. The artist promises a dividend to the producer on earnings, in return for the INVESTMENT the producer makes in helping the artist bring a product successfully to market.

FWIW any project I personally worked on or happened close by where the producer got points, the producer also obtained a flat producers fee from the label in addition to the points ,so I didn't see that they were making an investment (eg: financing the whole thing for future licensing to a label or whatever) in the project, other than the time & ideas/ guidance provided during that time..

Another thing about points is does anyone ever even see $ from their points?
Kinda doubtful unless they have a good relationship with the label boss / accounts controller and the record in question sold x-million copies above the breakeven point.

I would guess the amount of producers on Earth who actually see $ in a given year from their points is extremely low..

I could be wrong on this, does someone else have real World details on this..?

The producers I personally know, as far as I know never saw any dough from their points due to not selling enough and or got shafted by the label on records that sold a lot of copies..

So the 'point' is possibly kinda moot.

What I find kinda funny with all this is whenever Steve makes some statement about how he personally does things which is against the grain of the status quo or challenges the 'norm' in some way - there is inevitably a heated backlash where some people just seem to go 'off' almost as if it were a discussion of religious or political beliefs and someone's viewpoint got challenged...

Rock it!

RM

[RMoore]

Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 08:40

But, anyway, thanks Brian. I understand and appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, and apologize if my means of communicating seems caustic.

Your means of communication not only seems caustic - Its obvious you have some personal beef against Steve, for some reason, that goes beyond a difference of opinion - its as if you feel he has offended you in some way personally.
..
And the beef is constantly recurring over a series of threads on various topics..

The lack of basic courtesy just gets embarrassing IMO & doesn't give an impression of professionalism, from someone who appears to consider themselves a professional..

My 2 cents on that..

Quote:

Many if not most of the commercial studio clients are truly the "vanity projects" - trust fund brats who can afford the rates.

Thats a rather interesting perspective on people who use commercial studios!..

[AlexVI]

This is an interesting discussion... it seems to me that there are two very different situation being described, and these should be separated.

The first is that which I think Steve Albini is talking about. It is where talented musicians, signed to a label, come into a studio to record an album. The studio is paying everyone involved for their work - why then, should the engineer or whoever expect to receive points on top? You agree a fee, and that's that. You do your job for the money paid. I appreciate Steve's moral argument that one shouldn't grab points away from the band here.

The second is a situation that others allude to. It is perhaps working with bands who aren't signed to a major label, or who are signed to a small indie which can't afford to pay for the production of the record. The band may not be able to afford the engineer's quoted daily rate, so they do a deal - lower or no daily rate in exchange for some points. In this situation, I see no reason not to take the points, morally. The band are offerring you point instead of a full fee. This works well for them - not so much up front, if the record bombs, no liability, if it sells well, then yes they'll end up paying you well, but they'll be well paid themselves too.

There are grey areas inbetween these two situations (the band where everything is being paid for by a majpor label, but the engineer / producer feel that they've had a substantial amount of artistic input, for example), but broadly what I'm reading into this are the two situations, which should surely be kept quite distinct.

--

Steve - if a band came to you with barely a oenny to their name, and begged you do do a disc for them on an offer of points... if you liked them and thought the music stood a good chance of success... would you not take the points? Even if you took less points than others might (say you worked out the totalt expected sales, your daily fee, and what that would be points-wise?)

Looking at it that way, your daily fee adds to the costs of making the disc... if the band are paid on points 'after break even' by the label, then you're taking money away from the band when you take a fee too... Indeed, might it not be fairer to take a lower fee plus points? That way the label hit break even sooner, so the band start getting any money at all sooner too...



AVI



_________________________________

Alexander Van Ingen

[Rigby]

If your contribution as an engineer is so creative and so important to the project, why not ask for a credit as co-writer, or as a member of the band?

Alternatively, if you're giving away your time up front, why should that be different from a situation where the artist takes out a bank loan to pay your fees?  Once the bank had been paid back the loan amount and the interest, they would have no further financial interest in the project.

[Curve Dominant]

Ryan Moore wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 12:06

Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 08:40  But, anyway, thanks Brian. I understand and appreciate the spirit of what you're saying, and apologize if my means of communicating seems caustic. Your means of communication not only seems caustic - Its obvious you have some personal beef against Steve, for some reason, that goes beyond a difference of opinion - its as if you feel he has offended you in some way personally. .. And the beef is constantly recurring over a series of threads on various topics.. The lack of basic courtesy just gets embarrassing IMO & doesn't give an impression of professionalism, from someone who appears to consider themselves a professional.

I've never met Steve, and I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

<ad hominem/inflammatory remark deleted by administrator>

If you don't like my view on a subject, Ryan, why don't you come up with something intelligent to say which might convince me otherwise?

<ad hominem/inflammatory remark deleted by administrator>

THANKS!

[RMoore]

Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 15:05

If you don't like my view on a subject, Ryan, why don't you come up with something intelligent to say which might convince me otherwise?

On your webmusings I noticed the following:

Think about it: Pablo Picasso, Rudolf Nijinsky, Jimi Hendrix, Martha Graham, Andy Warhol, Frank Gehry, Eugene O'Neil,  Marlon Brando, Mark Rothko, Miles Davis, Martin Scorcese, Juan Miro...all of these artists and legions more made profound contributions to their respective artforms by wreaking destructive havoc on them. They were all "self-important"  by most average people's standards. They put themselves and their work above "the art."                                      
                                   
To know people like these may be to suffer their unbearable egos, but when they succeed, they become our heroes. It's  funny how that works.                                    


It doesn't take much to deduce that you may identify with and derive some inspriration from these great figures, and thats a good thing..

One little comment is this: its worth remembering that to along with any difficult personality and or abrasive ego,  these kinds of figures also had the goods eg: a brilliant and unique artistic genius that changed, forever, the artform in which they worked and which showed the ways for others to follow in their fields...

!

Cheers,

RM

[Eric Bridenbaker]

The way I've understood this is that engineers and producers can get points when they ask for them, and the label and the artists representatives are willing to go along with it. 2 to 3 percent of sales seems typical.

In order to get all involved to go along with these points, the producer or engineer has got to bring some sort of desireable leverage to the table. That leverage could be a trusted name (and track record of successes) or in some cases work provided on spec, giving the artist financial support to make the recording... Some producers have management and lawyers to help negotiate these deals.

I've never been direcly privy to one of these arrangements in person however, so please correct me or fill in the blanks if necessary.

Cheers,
Eric

[Eric Rudd]

AlexVI wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 12:16

Steve - if a band came to you with barely a oenny to their name, and begged you do do a disc for them on an offer of points... if you liked them and thought the music stood a good chance of success... would you not take the points? Even if you took less points than others might (say you worked out the totalt expected sales, your daily fee, and what that would be points-wise?)

Not to sound too much like Dr. Phil here, but they can't get a job to pay for the session?

I've done many sessions for points (another fancy version of a "spec" deal),  and have never seen any money from them. Not that that proves anything one way or the other. But one thing I've now learned over the years is your client will respect and appreciate your work more if they have to honestly PAY for it.

The band can work another job, save their money for a couple days of session time, practice their songs in the mean time, and be ready to roll when their time at the studio comes around.

Eric Rudd