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[PaulyD]

This is in response to this post. I think this is really morphing away from the original topic of the thread so I started a new one.

Mr. Albini, with all due respect, I am surprised that you think engineers and/or producers never deserve points.

Let's say a boogie-woogie blues rock band books a studio, and they aren't striving for anything epicurean or groundbreaking. They're just old fashioned straight ahead meat-and-potatoes rock n' roll. Let's say, however, they strike a cord with the the public and with a major label, and now their CD, including the tracks recorded at our Fictitious Humble Studio, is taking off like gangbusters. Now, does the engineer at said studio deserve points for sticking an SM57 in front of a Twin Reverb? Of course not. Especially if they got paid for their services up front and that was the deal.

However...what if an engineer on a project takes a gamble. That is, takes a project on spec or for very little money because he or she really likes the people in the band and believes that they're doing something special musically. What if, during this project, the engineer becomes so intertwined with the project they are, at times, really more like engineer/producer/arranger/programmer? Let's say these contributions really are creative and take the music to a level that may not have been achieved without the engineer's dedication and commitment? Let's say later on the engineer also helps the band  slice up bits of the music for multi-sampling that allows the band to perform the music live. I would think that engineer deserves a slice of the pie if the gamble/experiment pays off.

When I listen to a track like Cheryl Crow's "Every Day Is A Winding Road," I really wonder who's idea it was to use delay and reverse reverb at the end of the last verse ("Were ever really happening..." Trina Shoemaker perhaps?). Some engineers or producers would probably have just used a backing vocal there. It would still be good, but what was done sounds fantastic. Isn't that truly creative? If an engineer is peppering a project with ideas like that, that takes a good record and then gives it that something extra that turns it into a chart smasher, how is it they don't deserve points?

I'm not trying to be combative here. Obviously, you would know better than me. I'm just genuinely surprised by your stance. Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Of course, I welcome all input here.

Regards,

Paul

[Curve Dominant]

This is a completely useless debate upon which there will never be any consensus.

In a free market economy, you get what you get for a reason: somebody wanted to give it to you. Points, royalties, flat salary, whatever.

If you don't want it, don't take it.

[electrical]

PaulyD wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 18:06

...what if an engineer on a project takes a gamble. That is, takes a project on spec or for very little money because he or she really likes the people in the band and believes that they're doing something special musically. What if, during this project, the engineer becomes so intertwined with the project they are, at times, really more like engineer/producer/arranger/programmer? Let's say these contributions really are creative and take the music to a level that may not have been achieved without the engineer's dedication and commitment? Let's say later on the engineer also helps the band  slice up bits of the music for multi-sampling that allows the band to perform the music live. I would think that engineer deserves a slice of the pie if the gamble/experiment pays off.

If you want money, ask for money. If you're doing it because you love the art and are getting satisfaction out of it, great. They don't take your love or your satisfaction away when the record becomes a success. What I find creepy is the notion that the secondary effort put into a project by an engineer should be used as justification to siphon money away from the band, since their effort, creativity and work are vastly more important than  a few bright ideas at the last minute.

If I work on a record, I am doing it for a specific period of time. I need to be paid for that time (currently at $450 a day). Once I'm done, I see no reason why I should be paid again based on a transaction I am not involved in: Someone who likes the band buys one of their records.

Quote:

When I listen to a track like Sheryl Crow's "Every Day Is A Winding Road," I really wonder who's idea it was to use delay and reverse reverb at the end of the last verse ("Were ever really happening..." Trina Shoemaker perhaps?). Some engineers or producers would probably have just used a backing vocal there. It would still be good, but what was done sounds fantastic. Isn't that truly creative? If an engineer is peppering a project with ideas like that, that takes a good record and then gives it that something extra that turns it into a chart smasher, how is it they don't deserve points?

Because without Sheryl Crow, the music, the performance, the audience they attract (and the resources committed because of them) there would be nothing to put reverse reverb on. The reverse reverb is a trivial detail. If it sounds good, then the engineer earned his/her paycheck. He/she should be thrilled with that. I know I am.

I don't think reverse reverb has ever made a dud into a chart smasher. I think Sheryl Crow deserves the credit for that.

Quote:

I'm not trying to be combative here. Obviously, you would know better than me. I'm just genuinely surprised by your stance. Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

No, I think you understand me fine. My sympathies are with the bands. They work harder, for longer, with less renumeration than anybody in the music business, and everyone is always trying to pick their pockets for a couple of points. Fuck that.

That any of us have jobs is thanks to the bands we get to record and the audiences they have attracted. They are the engine that drags this whole choo-choo of assholes with cellphones behind it, and we should all respect that.

[electrical]

Eric Vincent wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 18:36

This is a completely useless debate upon which there will never be any consensus. In a free market economy, you get what you get for a reason: somebody wanted to give it to you. Points, royalties, flat salary, whatever. If you don't want it, don't take it.

You're right, someone wants to give points to producers: Record labels. They want to do it because those points will cost them nothing, as the money would have been going to the band otherwise.

If I could pay my grocer with someone else's money, I wouldn't care what a dozen eggs cost.

I believe an ethical position can be taken on how money is routinely accounted in the music business. I take the position that paying producers and engineers points is taking money from those who are already getting the least, yet deserve the most. I see that as an unethical way to extract money from the system.

You are welcome to disagree, and you will be in much company.

[Level]

I am afraid I have to agree with Eric.

Studio sessions are affairs which are consulted and set-up in advance before you open the mics or book the session. Either you are providing a service..such as a place for the band to record and the proper staff to get the job done, working in coordination with the production team (session director, producer, liaison) or you are running a studio that picks up bands without said support staff and doing it mostly on your own...with a band that has no clue what they want except a "cee dee".

Which is it?

If it is the ladder and you as the studio owner is providing the role of producer, etc, then some points (if the project would ever hope to get that far) can and should be part of the deal because you are the one making that deal. You are taking some players and coordinating them properly through the process of getting the records in the store. Do you have the staff for that? The experience?

How flexible is your facility? How talented are you and your staff at providing everything an artist needs from planning to distribution to tracking of airplay? Do you provide an entire promotional team with your services?

So. It boils down to identifying exactly what your studio does and what is its capacities. I dare say...a recording engineer working in a facility will have a very rough time of filling all of those niches if he/she can fill very few of them at all.

Identify your clients needs and work within them. If they do not have the tools to do what they want and you don't have the tools they want, this needs to be established early on.

In my capacity, I find out everything I am required of from my client and if I cannot follow through with all of their needs, I will farm out the ones which need filling with those who specialize in it...and only if they need those services from me.

A band, going into a studio to record with no plan in place to do anything at all with the finished product is a waste of time for the band. The only senerio would be selling CD's at gigs. It would take a shit load of sales to counteract a full production so...something else needs to be planned for the release. Some studios simply provide a production and thats it. Some Facilities go deeper. Identify what your client wants and come to terms with what you provide professionally.

[Norwood]

I totally and unpopularly agree with you Steve.  If we didn't live 3000 miles from each other I think we'd be friends.    

[Norwood]

Level wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 16:28

You are taking some players and coordinating them properly through the process of getting the records in the store. Do you have the staff for that? The experience? How flexible is your facility? How talented are you and your staff at providing everything an artist needs from planning to distribution to tracking of airplay? Do you provide an entire promotional team with your services?

This sounds more like a small record label than a studio... are there studios that do this?

[henchman]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you too steve.

When I am producing and engineering a band, I am usually a big part of the creative process. Adding parts etc. I've spent years perfecting what I do, and that, IMO, has added value, and I have no problem expecting people to pay for it.

Every dickwad involved with a band is getting a piece if it sells big, including one of those "big five" mixers,(not saying they sre dickwads), who usually get points, AND more money to mix what I have spent way more time producing. And lets not forget the entertainment lawyer the entertainment lawyer.

Alot of label guys make sure they have an "Executive-producers" with points, even thought they are getting paid ridiculous amounts of money by the label. And they usually hinder the production process more than they help it.

Now, if your fine with making less money that the secreatary at the lable for producing hit records, that's fine. But let's not pretend it's producers points and engineering fees that are the reason bands don't make money on their record sales.

How about NOT spending $500k on a video, or hundreds of thousdands of dollars going into mafiosos independant promoters.

[PaulyD]

Steve, thanks for your reply. Do you decline points even if they're offered? If so, hats off to you, especially for the reasons you state. Really. Perhaps declining the points strengthens your relationships with musicians and brings them back your studio.

So many posters here have lamented what they perceive as crappy music being foisted upon an unwitting public as part of the downfall of great studios. I just wonder what could be if good studios or engineers took chances by occasionally helping bands whose music they really believe in, even if it can't be pigeonholed under the current market. Could studios themselves stem the tide and help bring back music that is truly enriching? I think those engineers and studio owners who do take that risk deserve a slice of the pie if they gamble on a band that takes off (not forever, of course, but on that first CD). "Gambling" meaning they're running the risk of getting little or no money. But if they really believe in the band and their music...That seems like a way to wrest some control away from labels where artist development is concerned. Perhaps a studio could even start their own label if they had enough hits. It wouldn't take a whole lot of creative marketing to leverage a little generosity into promotion for a studio and create some good will that pays off in the long run.

Maybe I'm over-romanticizing the whole thing.

Cheers,

Paul  

[Level]

Quote:

This sounds more like a small record label than a studio... are there studios that do this?

I have worked in 3 studios that had labels down the hall.

So...yes, indies have labels and studios intertwined and so do the majors. Remember, major label studios are for hire as well, without being affiliated with the label.

I am hooked into some labels. If the client would like to talk to them, I should get paid for the referral. Anyone that thinks the business model of the recording arts cannot change or should conform to some old standard that is locked into their mind, better think again. Times dictate change. It may not be your idea of how it should be but if an artist can get signed to an established indie label and has none, I can drop a business card.

[Curve Dominant]

Norwood wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 01:12

Level wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 16:28  You are taking some players and coordinating them properly through the process of getting the records in the store. Do you have the staff for that? The experience? How flexible is your facility? How talented are you and your staff at providing everything an artist needs from planning to distribution to tracking of airplay? Do you provide an entire promotional team with your services? This sounds more like a small record label than a studio... are there studios that do this?

Yes, and there are independent producers who do this too. The independent producer IS the record label of the future.

This is really an extremely simple concept. The gentleman from Chicago is making quite the effort to make it seem very complicated, but it's not. Here's why:

Anyone who has recieved an interest payment from a bank account, or a dividend from a stock, bond or MMA, KNOWS why the producer gets a percentage of the sales of the product he helped produced.

The artist promises a dividend to the producer on earnings, in return for the INVESTMENT the producer makes in helping the artist bring a product successfully to market.

It is THAT SIMPLE.

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[Level]

Steve will bask in the limelight of doing everything old school and keeping it old school. I can't blame him for trying, someone needs to hold the torch. Model T Fords are still registered and are daily drivers as well. They actually get 25 MPG and cannot get you a traffic ticket for speeding..unless the speedlimit is below 45. Even the SUV's are trying to go old school Model Tee with the huge rims like a model Tee.

As long as a working system is in place, like the old teletype, someone will keep one active and go down in history as a "pioneer" of some sort. No offense to Steve, but this is how I see it. I have worked the old model for most of my life. It is taking its final breaths. Someone always stands by with the defibrillator.

[electrical]

henchman wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 20:24

Sorry, I have to disagree with you too steve. When I am producing and engineering a band, I am usually a big part of the creative process. Adding parts etc. I've spent years perfecting what I do, and that, IMO, has added value, and I have no problem expecting people to pay for it.

Then ask for money. If you're truly worth it, they'll pay you. If not, then you won't get the work. A royalty still strikes me as inappropriate for someone doing the marginalia.

Quote:

Every dickwad involved with a band is getting a piece if it sells big, including one of those "big five" mixers,(not saying they sre dickwads), who usually get points, AND more money to mix what I have spent way more time producing. And lets not forget the entertainment lawyer the entertainment lawyer.

At least we agree it's a dickwad move. Do you really want to be another dickwad taking advantage of someone else's career?

Quote:

Now, if your fine with making less money that the secreatary at the lable for producing hit records, that's fine. But let's not pretend it's producers points and engineering fees that are the reason bands don't make money on their record sales.

The system of parsing away an artist's royalty to pay other people is the principle reason bands don't get the money they earn. Producers and engineers getting paid in this way is participating in that system. It is part of the problem.

Quote:

How about NOT spending $500k on a video, or hundreds of thousdands of dollars going into mafiosos independant promoters.

Also fine ideas. I have no control over those areas. I can decide how I should be paid, however, and I prefer not to be another dickwad.

[electrical]

PaulyD wrote on Sun, 13 February 2005 20:26

Steve, thanks for your reply. Do you decline points even if they're offered? If so, hats off to you, especially for the reasons you state. Really. Perhaps declining the points strengthens your relationships with musicians and brings them back your studio.

I do not take production royalties, for the reasons I said I don't. They have been offered in the past, and I have always declined.

I get paid for my time, which is enough for me.

[Curve Dominant]

Level wrote on Mon, 14 February 2005 01:52

Steve will bask in the limelight of doing everything old school and keeping it old school. I can't blame him for trying, someone needs to hold the torch.

Bill,

Carrying a torch is fine.

Trying to burn others with it, betrays envy, and insecurity.

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