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[Radd 47]

Man, it probably took longer to hook up al that stuff than it took Pamela to put on her makeup!

[wireline]

{Note meant as a hijack...observation and question}

OK...I'm finally starting to get it...the consensus here is one type of preamp (regardless of how many of that one type) seems to be a preferred method to achieving a...memorable...sound.

And, these preamp choice (regardless of which one) can offset shortcomings in a board's internal pre circuits....

And, that a good (great) pre can be used for anything from strings to screaming guitars to vocals to drums...when used in conjunction with the right placement, right mic choice, right musicians, etc...

So, why all the arguments, fist fights, shootings, mother stabbings, and flamefests when it comes down to 'which pre for which application?"  Isn't there enough historical precendence for the one pre application to put this matter to rest?  Perhaps the arguments didn't arise until the medium to which they were outputted to changed.  

In the end, it appears there are a few external units (API, Neve, to name a few) that will wound good on anything...and that for the most part, the lion's share of pres can be usable if the engineer knows what to do with it and understands the system's limitations?

If I'm wrong, please let me know...I've been behind the board for a while now  and still get headaches over all this confusion.

[Kris]

Say I'm recording an acoustic guitar and vocal.  I've got a Great River MP-4 and an API 312... using the same mic, the MP-4 , sounds better than the API 312 on the acoustic guitar.  

Next I'm recording a full band with an API board.  There is an acoustic guitar part... the same player and guitar (and mic) as the previous example.  

You are saying it will sound better as a whole to use the API pre on the acoustic, even though my ear tells me that it sounds better (soloed) using the MP-4?

Maybe you're saying as a whole (using great pres) it doesn't matter... but for the life of me I'm not understanding how this can make the recording worse???

Just trying to get this straight.  

[Lee Flier]

Well first of all I don't think the API boxes of today sound like the old console channels.  They're darker and not as open.  Anybody else have this observation?  I don't know about the channels on the newer API boards and I don't know which desk you'll be using Kris... but I would give the console strip a try.

But I digress, sort of.  I don't think I necessarily agree with William that using multiple pres actually makes a recording worse, although there are scenarios I can envision where it would (and I would love to hear William's ideas behind why he thinks so).  And most of us have probably worked on Frankenconsoles where there are a few channels from other types of desks.

I don't think I'd use more than two different pre's on a record though, three at the very most.  If they are great pres, I can't imagine feeling I neded it, and at that point it becomes just another opportunity for "option paralysis"... there are endless permutations of mic/pre combinations and it's probably better to just pick a great pre or two (preferably one that you're familiar with on different mics) and remove that from the equation.

Also worth noting is that there are only a handful of pres that really do sound great on anything.  The rest seem to only sound good for certain things, thus creating a "need" to use multiple pres if we don't have/can't afford a rackful of premium channels.

[Lee Flier]

wireline wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 07:29

So, why all the arguments, fist fights, shootings, mother stabbings, and flamefests when it comes down to 'which pre for which application?"  Isn't there enough historical precendence for the one pre application to put this matter to rest?

You would think, but... see my last post.

Quote:

Perhaps the arguments didn't arise until the medium to which they were outputted to changed.

Yeah, I don't ever remember hearing one argument of that nature until a few years ago.  The market has become flooded with outboard pres of varying quality now within a very short time, so arguments and confusion are inevitable.

Quote:

In the end, it appears there are a few external units (API, Neve, to name a few) that will wound good on anything...and that for the most part, the lion's share of pres can be usable if the engineer knows what to do with it and understands the system's limitations?

That's somewhat true once you get above a certain level, spec-wise.  A pre that doesn't have enough headroom will sound crappy on very loud or transient sources like drums, although it might be perfectly fine for quieter stuff.  A pre that is noisy and/or doesn't have a lot of gain will sound like doo-doo on quiet sources (especially with a ribbon mic!  ) but might be fine on an electric guitar cab... etc.

But if you can afford a rackfull of high quality pres you might as well pick one (and maybe 1-2 channels of a different one) that has great specs all around and can handle anything, and leave it at that.  With the cheaper stuff, you need options because they had to cut corners somewhere.

[J.J. Blair]

In my case, my console has IC mic pres, which I don't care for as much.  I happen to have a crap load of Langevin AM16s, Neve and API pres that I think sound much better, and I tend to use those.  However, I don't get overly anal about A/B'ing each pre against on each instrument.  I'll just go by instinct, and if it sounds bad, I'll try something else.  

BTW, I have a friend who made a record with a certain very famous engineer that still sports a mullet (his name rhymes with 'pweeg').  Anyway, my friend says that this engineer spent over an hour trying different mic pres for the tambourine track.  Usually there is is crystal meth present for this type of behavior, but apparently there wasn't any in this case.  But if you look at this guy's room full of all that fucking gear, I have to say I don't think his mixes are that great, at least not better than mixes that come from a good engineer using a fraction of that gear.  But that's a rant for another topic named "Why do they keep giving work to the Emperor's new clothes?"

[compasspnt]

J.J. wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 12:49

BTW, I have a friend who made a record with a certain very famous engineer that still sports a mullet (his name rhymes with 'pweeg').  Anyway, my friend says that this engineer spent over an hour trying different mic pres for the tambourine track.  Usually there is is crystal meth present for this type of behavior, but apparently there wasn't any in this case.  But if you look at this guy's room full of all that fucking gear, I have to say I don't think his mixes are that great, at least not better than mixes that come from a good engineer using a fraction of that gear.  But that's a rant for another topic named "Why do they keep giving work to the Emperor's new clothes?"

Hummmmmm.......

JJ, I could write the mother of all stories for this forum about a certain individual (including scanned evidence which would blow everyone away), but I just can't do it (at least in writing), however deserved it may be.  Professional ethics just (barely) take precedence....

[wwittman]

Well that's just it...

Does the tambourine end up sounding incredible? Or is it just part of the mystique he's selling?

And at home will YOUR tambourine really be improved if you drop another 1500 on the preamp that you read on the net you NEED to have to go with the mic you NEED to have for a tambourine on your specific genre of music...

it gets ridiculous.
FAST.

If my favourite records of all time, the recordings I thought were still superior to anything else.. the ones that everyone tries to emulate... if they were made on one desk and probably mixed on it as well!, then why on earth do I NEED more choices??

As to why it's 'bad' to have the choices?
Well, again, first it's bad because if you spend even a minute deciding how to record the tambourine instead of just doing it, you're wasting time and probably stopping someone's creative flow (if you don't HAVE any creative flow then tambourine isn't going to help... even marraccas can't save you there <g>)
and second, especially in the hands of the less experienced, I still believe it's just one more chance to make sounds that don't work well together.

If you have, for example, API pres and you make the entire record through them, in no way will your record be 'improved' by a 1073 on some things.
Only changed.
It may not ruin your work.
It just won't make a better record, and it may make a somewhat worse one.

[maxdimario]

There are so many more predictable ways to alter sound, by using outboard, that there should be no need to use different pre's.

The pre should reproduce the music in a natural and powerful way.

Music should be hypnotic, and the pre should be able to capture that by being fast and natural enough to transmit the immediacy of the performance.

The big problem of course is that most preamps should be called budget preamps because they come from consoles with a large amount of channels in a small chassis.

large component count makes for high cost, so restrictions of quality are applied to balance cost and sales.

[McAllister]

Terry - With all due respect, please don't taunt us like that. It's unnerving. Can't you change the names? Refraing from displaying scans? Change a couple of smallish facts around so that no-one knows who you're talking about?

c'mon. . .

M

[compasspnt]

McAllister wrote on Mon, 07 March 2005 12:34

Terry - With all due respect, please don't taunt us like that. It's unnerving. Can't you change the names? Refraing from displaying scans? Change a couple of smallish facts around so that no-one knows who you're talking about? c'mon. . . M

Quote:

J.J. wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 12:49 BTW, I have a friend who made a record with a certain very famous engineer that still sports a mullet (his name rhymes with 'pweeg'). Anyway, my friend says that this engineer spent over an hour trying different mic pres for the tambourine track. Usually there is is crystal meth present for this type of behavior, but apparently there wasn't any in this case. But if you look at this guy's room full of all that fucking gear, I have to say I don't think his mixes are that great, at least not better than mixes that come from a good engineer using a fraction of that gear. But that's a rant for another topic named "Why do they keep giving work to the Emperor's new clothes?" Hummmmmm....... JJ, I could write the mother of all stories for this forum about a certain individual (including scanned evidence which would blow everyone away), but I just can't do it (at least in writing), however deserved it may be. Professional ethics just (barely) take precedence...

Sorry!  I don't mean it to be a tease...read JJ's post carefully and draw your own conclusions...those who have encountered this un-named individual will know whereof I speak...But I can't in  good conscience actually say bad things in print about a (...ugh!,..leaves a bad taste...) fellow music person  (....uggghhh, a very bad taste, to even say it...).  I will think through my options here.

[RMoore]

Did the tambourine get slammed in the mix with a Fairchild 670?
I heard it was the sound that really made the tune a hit!

[compasspnt]

J.J. wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 12:49

"Why do they keep giving work to the Emperor's new clothes?"

I keep a sign on my console which reads

"WWJJD"

I will not explain further.

[ajcamlet]

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 13:33

J.J. wrote on Fri, 04 March 2005 12:49 BTW, I have a friend who made a record with a certain very famous engineer that still sports a mullet (his name rhymes with 'pweeg').  Anyway, my friend says that this engineer spent over an hour trying different mic pres for the tambourine track.  Usually there is is crystal meth present for this type of behavior, but apparently there wasn't any in this case.  But if you look at this guy's room full of all that fucking gear, I have to say I don't think his mixes are that great, at least not better than mixes that come from a good engineer using a fraction of that gear.  But that's a rant for another topic named "Why do they keep giving work to the Emperor's new clothes?" Hummmmmm....... JJ, I could write the mother of all stories for this forum about a certain individual (including scanned evidence which would blow everyone away), but I just can't do it (at least in writing), however deserved it may be.  Professional ethics just (barely) take precedence....

Terry:

how about just changing the names & places to protect the guilty?
ajc

[ajcamlet]

sort of ala Mixerman, w/ Bitch Slap