Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[smj]

Hi all,

I front a jazz quartet which I like to record from time to time.  Electric guitar and bass, drums, and acoustic piano and sometimes a hammond module for funk material.

The stage is about 20 feet wide if that.  Musically, the group covers a pretty wide dynamic range.  Ballads to more aggressive funk material.

I now have a pair of Gefell M300's and Gefell MV692 w/M70 capsules.  Which would be better suited for capturing the overall sound?  Also, will these mics need a windscreen?  I've yet to try these mics in this application as I just got them.

Mic pre would be a Chandler TG2 and recorder is Tascam MX2424.

Thank you muchly.

[smj]

I had also been thinking about adding another Royer 121 to the fold (as I already have one) and using a pair of those....or possibly adding another 414 TLII and using a pair of those.  Any thoughts?

[smj]

Wow...so many views and so little response.  Perhaps my question is a little vague.

Basically I'm preparing to do a live album.  Problem is, I need to hire someone to actually record my group.  The person I hire uses the gear that I have.  My performances are usually weeks apart...and when we play...because of the nature of the clubs around here...we don't always have much time to set up.

I'm looking to create a system that's pretty fast to set up and allows a little bit of flexibility when mixing.

After doing a full album of close mic'd instrumentation....and many many recordings of just 2 mics on stage....I'm hoping to create recordings that are a cross between the two.

In jazz, if everything is close mic'd you never hear the true interaction between the instruments.  With stereo micing, the soloist can easily get drowned out (especially when you play with very aggressive rhythm sections).  The soloist that usually gets drowned out is me....the guitar player!

Sooo...I'm going to try an experiment the next show I have.  A stereo pair of mics on left and right side of the stage....and a spot mic for soloists.....maybe even a DI for the bass as well.

I was thinking the M300's as the overall...a Royer 121 on the guitar cab,  and possibly the MV692's on the piano or maybe even just a 414?

The problem is, when I play live I need to focus on playing...I don't have time to be manning the recording gear and listening to how it sounds.  Sometimes I've taped a live show and the music was great, but the recording is not releasable.  I'd like to at least have some sort of game plan for the next show.

I personally love the sound of Branford Marsalis's and Dave Holland's new recordings.  The bands sound so alive....and the albums sound really raw to me.  Dave's album "Live At Birdland" sounds like they used maybe 3 mics.  Somehow I think there was more to it than that.  

That's the kind of vibe I'm going for.

Any thoughts...advice....encouragement?  Thanks in advance.

[Bob Olhsson]

The first thing you probably need to consider is the sound system, or hopefully, the lack of one!

Then you need a stage setup where everybody can really hear each other well as an ensemble. Only then can you consider where to put the mikes, what mike patterns and particular models might work best.

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

Hey, I'm in TO  too, and a big jazz fan (can't play it so well anymore though)

Why not set up close mics and a couple room mics??  I'd stay away from wide spaced stereo pairs (phase issues).  You can really play with all your mics in the mix after the gig, providing they aare in the right spot to start with.  I know your pain with trying to play and record at the same time.  They both suffer.

I've got a great porta rig (PT 002) with some decent mics (184's, etc) and a Focusrite ISA 428. I'd be more than willing to help out with your gig.  I've been itching to do some more jazz stuff.  

PM or call  me if you're interested.  

Ryan Patterson

Toronto ON

416 854-0792

[Gone]

I've recorded a lot of jazz music, live shows and studio affairs. I don't entirely agree that you don't get the interaction between the instruments with close (or semi-close) miking. I usually find that bleed between the mics tends to weave all the sounds together nicely. I've never been a big fan of stereo or ensemble miking in jazz, as it's hard to play so precisely consistently and controlled that the acoustic balance is perfect through an entire piece (and an entire session / album / three sets!).

But, as for close miking, two things come to mind. One is, I don't place the mics as close in jazz as rock or pop, generally. A healthy amount of bleed is usually a good thing. Second, the quality of the mics, and therefore the quality and tone of the bleed.

I'd say your mics are good enough that the bleed should work for you. If you hired me to do it, I'd probably individually mic everything (if allowed). If you really want the stereo thing, I'd probably start (as you said) by trying the 300s as the pair, and filling in from there. As Bob O said, the sound system is a consideration (another reason I'd close-r mic). For the best results, set up the pair, find a good sweet spot, then fill in as necessary for what's lacking in tone, definition and level. I'm not very familiar with the Royers or other Gefell to suggest what would go where.

My final thought would be - hire someone you can trust and communicate with, and do a test-run or early sound check if possible. (I did a few live recordings where my mix began on the first note of the first set). Allow them to add some input or ideas on getting the sound you want. If you hire a good engineer, you might not want to entirely pre-determine their set-up.

[smj]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the wonderful insight.  As far as the sound system.... there isn't one.  Ok that's not entirely true.....the piano is mic'd and there's the talkback mic for me the band leader.....no singing.

My thought is to do some trial runs over the next while and make sure I have a procedure worked out with my engineer(s).  Perhaps we might get lucky and capture some magic the next few runs...perhaps not.  I use the plural form of engineers because I do have a shortlist of people I have worked with who know my music as well as my recording gear.  Some of them are more experienced than others.

We've played these clubs enough times to know what setup works.  Piano stage right, drums more in the center, bass stage left by the hi hat.  The guitar amp (4x10 cab on the floor)usually is between the piano and drum kit...slightly in front of the kit.

Just out of curiosity...some other live albums that come to mind that would be similar in music style would be John Scofield's "Live at the Bluenote" as well as Pat Metheny's most recent live trio recording.  Anyone familiar with the recording setup for these records?

[analog Tom]

With the Tascam 2424, you have the ability to record both individual mics and one or more stereo pairs.  

So why not do that?  Put up one or more pairs, and then mic the instruments individually.  Then spend some time listening to what you get.  Maybe you'll like a combination of basic stereo pair with spot mic enhancement.  

I certainly wouldn't think of a pair of 414-TLIIs as a main pair.  And I agree with the opinion that spot mic'ing individual instruments does NOT mean losing the sense of connection between them.  That depends on performance and recording space and only secondarily on mic placement.  

Cordially,  
Tom

[smj]

Hi Tom,

In keeping with your idea about a couple of stereo pairs and spots....how would you arrange the stereo pairs?  Wide stereo...or maybe ortf, or x/y?  To make it more specific....lets say you had 2 pairs of pencil condensers....the 300's and 692's.

Stage is about 20 feet wide.  Bout 120 people capacity club....lots of chatter going on from the audience...not a quiet club....but I love the energy there which is why I would want to record there instead of a supper club.

[andrew.levine]

Hi there,

I got (to my ears) pleasant results working with a Jazz trio a few days ago. Electric guitar on the right, string bass (with pickup and small amp at the back) on the left and percussion at the back of a very small stage - optimal conditions for a close AB-setup.

I used a close pair of Earthworks QTC1 omnis, spaced at 51.5 cm and at a height of 6' and two DPA 4060 omnis as spots, one dangling before the guitar amp, the other taped to the bass' bar. They ran straight to my Metric Halo 2882, through the Z-Qualizer (16-bit pow-r 3) straight to MasterLink. You can currently hear the monitor mix at <http://blumlein.net/MassoudGodemannTrio/>.

Next time I might use two DIs to get some detail on the bass and guitar.

I plan on remixing with a reduction of room-resonance and perhaps a low-cut on the main pair.

Regards,

Andrew Levine

P.S.: I usually track classical music so I am grateful for any comments you have on the sound of the rough mix any my setup.

[ted nightshade]

I bought Dave Holland's "Live at Birdland" at the show I caught at the SF Jazz Festival. It seemed to me like they were using the same setup on the CD as they used to mic the show. Too many mics for my taste! Still, it's nice and listenable and you get to hear the interplay and all that.

With our own ensemble we use minimal mic'ing approaches, one or two mics, and we rehearse with the set-up, record the rehearsals, listen back a lot, and fine-tune our dynamics and instrument placement to suit the mics. With this kind of feedback and discipline it's quite possible to get a good mix that works all night. It's a great form of musical interplay too, very good for the music I find.

I would consider that just because the stage is 20 feet wide doesn't mean the band needs to be spread out across 20 feet. Being physically close helps things be tight, especially with improvised music. And it can help create an image suitable for minimalist mic'ing.

FWIW!

[ted nightshade]

One more thought- usually at a live gig people do not pay much attention to exact placement and orientation of the instruments and amps. But there will be a place on that stage where each instrument sounds the best, where the room reflections come together to support the tone. It's well worth finding those places if you can- then all the room sound is to the good, instread of something to try and avoid.