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[Patrik T]

Hello all.

I'm recording through at 24 bit converter to a PC. My DAW is set to recording depths of 24 bits. There is a 24 bit PCM file on my HD after the recording.

So I wonder - this file, with its 24 bits depth, shouldn't it really be just a plain 24 bit PCM file regardless what DAW I use for the recording? I mean - can different DAW's influence the recorded file evethough it is just a wordlength that exits out from my A/D and onto the HD.

I know that when it comes to playback, different DAW's might sound different and especially with a mix going on. But the basic recorded file, isn't that just a 24 bit PCM that has nothing to do what host that have been used?


The basic reason I'm asking is that I downloaded the demo of Samplitude and inserted a project comprising of two tracks (mid/side) that was recorded in Sonar. I copied these from the Sonar's audio folder. The M/S encoding thorugh the Samplitude mixer sounded way more in phase than the same scenario in Sonar.

The M/S encoding in this case is just the M+S hard to the left and the M-S hard to the right. All faders are at unity gain at both the track channels and the output (the S channel was lower in recording and became just fine when S and M are at unity)

So - what I hear in this case should just be how the different audio engines are handling and playing back this extremely basic mix, comprising of two "double-cloned" 24 bit PCM tracks, right?

[UnderTow]

You might want to check the pan laws in both applications. Also, make sure that the M and S channels are sample accurately synced. I think Samplitude introduces a fade in/out on clips (or maybe only on mix down). That could move things about a sample or so. I'm not sure as I have never used Samplitude ...

UnderTow

[Patrik T]

There were automatic fade ins in Samplitude on the clips so I eliminated those.

Since the demo of Samplitude ain't able to export any mix, I placed a realtime recorder on the mixbus and recorded the output. Did the same on the Sonar mixbus. And hence could easier flip between two "similar" grasps that has been subject to similar "treatment".

And the two hosts sounds...different. It might be Samplitude is just playing the 24 bit file as it is and that Sonar have some sweetening going on. I don't know. I'm still evaluating.

I believe the pan laws are equal since the two different hosts realtime-recorded output files yields the same highest peaks and so on.

Anyways - what is interesting to know is if the recorded files (using Sonar) were not subject to anything else than what happened in the A/D. That they were just placed on the HD as a 24 bit PCM that exited my A/D. That nothing passed the host's "engine".

I would need some ensurement about that this transportation from the A/D to a place on the HD is "just what's happening" during a recording using any DAW host. Or do they affect/change the audio in their own sonical manner upon recording?

They shouldn't, right?

So if someone knows...

[Ronny]

Generally if the track is raw and unprocessed 24 bit recorded PCM wave, than it should sound the same in any quality DAW program. If you hear differences than:

1. There is a malfunction somewhere.

2. The user made a pilot error and isn't aware of it. This could be routing, gain summing or a number of other factors, too many to mention.

3. The pilot is imagining the difference.


# 3 is by far the most common explanation. If you aren't testing in the blind than you aren't testing. Don't leave everything up to the ear, corroborate your audible perceptions with the blind and double blind tests, null testing and analysis of the audio spectrum. If you can't measure the difference, you best blame your ears for it.

[maxdimario]

If you have an analog mixer, or recorder and something sounds fishy, you can take it apart and eventually you will figure out why it sounds the way it does... or at least accept that there are differences due to whatever reasons.

with DAWs and other 'boxed' digital gear, there is no way you  or 99.99% of the people you will meet can know exactly what is going on, because it's code, chips etc.

the only thing you SHOULD be listening to is your ears, as that is something you DO have control over... that is unless you trust the opinions of others more than your ears.

the question is not whether it should influence or not, but how it influences the sound.

[Patrik T]

Thank you Ronny and Max.

The difference I hear is not when listening to one track in a DAW host. It's when listening to four tracks (basically two tracks x 2) in a M/S encoding combination. It's when the audio is being mixed with unity gain on all possible faders in two different hosts.

A quite easy mixing task for any host.

I am aware of the phsychoacoustics, but that awareness doesn't make me close my ears. Since I can not do offline exports in the Samplitude demo I can not perform something like a null test.

I believe that different host's are mixing tracks together in different ways depending on the implemented code for this purpose. And I believe that a difference rooted in that can be heard.

But the basic question was about whether DAW host should just put a newly A-D coded datastream somewhere on the HD or if there are hosts that might alter the sonics of audio when the audio is being recorded.

[minister]

it looks to me -- not knowing these programs -- that is it the M-S matrixing that ius different.  once the file is written, it should sound the same in just about every DAW.  what would affect it are the mix bus and maybe the hardware that you are hearing it back through. (the D/A).

if the files are M-S, try the old skool way of putting the M in the center on a mono channle, then the S multed onto two mono tracks, panned L+R and one of them has the polarity fliped.  set this up in both DAW's to check.  they should sound the same.  if one has a slightly louder center,m then check the pan laws in the DAW's manual.

you should be able to take a PCM file and play it back in Pro Tools, Digital Performer, Cbase, Nuendo, etc.. and without any processing, through the same monitoring hear the exact samne thing...

[Etch-A-Sketch]

how are you decoding in Samplitude as compared to Sonar?  are you using a plugin to do the MS decoding?

another test you should do is to record similar MS tracks into Samplitude, then open them in Sonar.  Does your opinion change or are the results similar to your last MS recording done in Sonar?  If they are similar, then the audio files on the hard drive aren't affected by the program and all you are hearing is a difference in the mix engine/plugins between the two programs.