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[Stefan Netsman]

recordista wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 19:58

MD409 is another good choice for guitar cabs (and could be considered 'period correct' I suppose.)

I agree, I own some of the mics allready discussed (MD421, MD441, Beyer 160, SM57) and I really love them, but when encoutering LOUD LOUD guitaramps such as Fender Twin on "8" I often reach for my E609:s (I think thy call them 906 now), wich is the later version of the 409. This mic can really take a lot of SP and also has a very pronounced proximityeffect wich I find usefull for closeup work on clean/semiclean guitaramps.

[bushwick]

Without question I can only remember hearing Strats on Hendrix records.
You might be thinking of the cleaner, more round tones that went down on those records? Hendrix, who clearly loved and used Marshalls, also was a huge fan of a Fender Showman and used that with a 2x15" cabinet in the studio.

If you ever try that with your Strat - especially if you tune down -because that puts you into a rounder, more full sound with a Strat instantly - you will hear the tone you are looking for.

Listen to Band of Gypsies, Voodoo Chile (not the slight return): Big round Strat(!) sounds that sing without the tight brittleness/thiness that you usually get from them (depending on pickup.)  Also, he tuned down a whole step (to D) for Voodoo Chile and for the the whole Band of Gypsies record.  Strats can be plenty beefy.

As for great mics, try a Sennheiser 409. Its like a fair pairing of a Royer 121 and a Shure SM57. The cut of a 57 and some of the smoothness you'd get from a 121 and dont get from a 57. When I need an instant single electric guitar mic, its a no brainer.

[neverusespinky]

The thing I am beginning to understand is the use of several mics on an amp. My problem now, is that the placement is very important, and hard to reproduce the next day. Hopefully soon I can invest in a ribbon mic. Though it is a new thing to me. I want to thank everyone and am looking through the forums on different options. Can anyone tell me more about the Royer 121? One of my issues is praticallity. I understand they are cheaper to re-ribbon. Do they compete with a RCA ribbon off brand like B & O or so forth? I use a Stereo VCR to record with, and do it all live.

[Loco]

neverusespinky wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 13:37

Just how senistive are those RCA's?

Just a hair more than your ear, assuming you haven't been in rock concerts every week of your life. They are delicate, but they are sweet....

[neverusespinky]

I am also looking into the Beyer M160, it is cheaper than the Royer. It is real unfortunate that I have a hard time trying one of these out before I drop money on it. One of the guys who records me is looking for a U87 and a Avalon 737 for vocals,(the modern R&B standard I hear) and that will have to do for the "ambience" on guitar tracks as well. I am curious as to what preamps you guys use with these ribbons. Lately I have been going the digital route. It is just cheaper when alot of stuff I am at requires over dubs. So......M160/r121 into ???? into a 24bit/96. Did Kramer mostly use the SSL pres from the board? You know I am a tape guy but only when I can afford it and all this is for a project studio with a small $8,000 budget. Which is fine. I see that Alicia Keys goes into PARIS, and her albums still have a vintage "tint". I guess with my budget a "tint" is most realistic. I am looking for a big guitar sound. Like the new Santana (royers?). In fact the entire line up for the "album" is just me on many guitars, me on a nice 72 P-bass, and a Technic 1200 for the drums so to speak, and the u87 for my vocals which I just love to death for my vocals. We are hoping to have a Germino for an amp, and I have a 57 strat, so we are starting with good instruments to begin with. The Germino will be loud loud loud as it can be, natural break up with a lead 55, it is my stubborn hard headed musical ego --BOTTOM LINE--. In fact we won't push record until me and my amigos can afford a Germino. And can't wait to hear a ribbon.

[antti]

neverusespinky wrote on Sat, 22 January 2005 20:47

Can anyone tell me more about the Royer 121? One of my issues is praticallity. I understand they are cheaper to re-ribbon. Do they compete with a RCA ribbon off brand like B & O or so forth?

Royers are cool mics but not my favourite ribbons. Coles 4038
works better for me. I've had good results with 121s on piano,
drums (fok mainly not so much as oh), leslie, electric guitars, cellos
and my all time fav pedal steel (through Mesa mk1). 4038s
sound better (imo) for oh, brass, strings (stereo pair), piano and electric. Never used modern RCAs. Studio I used to
work had and old BX44 which was a killer for drums (just put in front of
kit and that was it), some lvox, strings and brass. I have a pair of
Beyer M160s which I use daily on electric gtrs (Jcm/Marshall/Laney),
they are also my favourite for leslie and cool for drums and perc. Hope this
helps,

Antti

[neverusespinky]

Antti
with the old RCA in front of the kit, and the Beyer, what preamps do you recommend? Even with digital, like tape too, simple is better for me.

[antti]

With the RCA it was either GML, Summit or John Hardy thingy inside MCI 500-series.
With the Beyers I use stock Soundcraft pres. Not very hifi but does the job..
I spend most time with amp settings (normally over-emphasizing lows and highs a little) then moving the mic in the right spot and 9/10 times that does it for me. They've sounded the best with V76s.

[antti]

Btw my Beyers (m160n to be precise) are the old, silver ones.
They do sound quite different to new black ones. A bit like the
old 421 and the new 421. In both cases I prefer the old/original ones.

If I would be you I would put my money on 4038 though.

Anyone tried the new Coles? Any good? How does it compare to
other 'modern' ribbons?

[tsuyoshi]

Klaus, I've been using a U67 on a 100W Plexi full stack about 4" from the cab. I love the sound, but can the capsule handle the high spl?

The post about Jimi recording with a les paul is so funny, strats and les pauls sound VERY different and Jimi was a strat man. Jimi sometimes used gibsons with humbuckers (flying V, SG) live, but his main sound was the strat. With the gibsons he only used a wah pedal, but with the strat he used a wah, fuzz pedal and univibe, sometimes an octave fuzz. On the Isle of Wight concert dvd you can see two mikes on the guitar cab, I believe a U67 or U87 and an akg D12 or D20. I think the U67 was for recording and the D12 for the P.A. The U67 is pretty close to the cab and it was LOUD!

[Klaus Heyne]

4" from a Marshall stack is silly.
Please search for a recent thread on this forum where the subject of high SPLs and their effect on condenser capsule diaphragm health was discussed.

P.S.: I think the Neumann mics you saw during Jimi's performance at the Isle of Wright Festival in 1970 were more likely first- generation U87s, not U67s:

I just saw a fascinating, must-see documentary for MIles Davis fans called "Miles Electric" - his stellar band's performance preceding Jimi Hendrix's that day.

There were, from what I could see, quite a few U87s on stage (purple badge visible on one shot. The U87 at the time was indistinguishable from U67s because it still had mostly Tuchel connectors with U67-style swivel mounts)

Ominously, lined up at the back of the stage, one could see what was soon to come after Miles's act: several towers of Marshalls...

P.P.S.: One of my dreams, one distant day, would be to compile, with the help of recording and mic afficionados out there, a listing of all seminal performances, studio and stage, and the mics used to record them.
This listing could be formatted in an easy look-up configuration, without any cluttering narrative.

[gtoledo3]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 19:01

Ribbon mikes were always treated as being VERY fragile. I remember seeing boxes of replacement ribbons that looked just like the red RCA tube boxes so studio shops must have been replacing ribbons themselves. My sources on the Hendrix-Les Paul story include a second engineer at Wally Heider's and a friend of Mitch Mitchell's. I was surprised but took it seriously after hearing the same thing from two or three different people.

My father was Mitch Mitchell's roomate at one time, and also was good friends with Hendrix's clothing designer- he was not great friends with Hendrix himself, but he was around, and witnessed alot of that period firsthand.

Hendrix had a black Les Paul custom that he used ALOT, in the studio. I believe it had alnico p-90's (single coil), but my memory is only 99% sure of this. When you think you are hearing that thin strat sound, a great deal of the time it is just the artifacts of things like the fuzzface, Roger Mayer effects units, or leaving a wah static, in an in between position. Of course, he DID also use Strats.

Hendrix used a variety of guitars. He used a Telecaster for "Fire" and some of the chimey clean guitar parts on the first two records. Later on, he used an SG and Flying V(the V was used on Cry Of Love a great deal).

I am surprised to hear about the Fender amp with a 15" like one of the posters asserts, but I do know that mahy of the clean parts on the first two records were done on a Fender Twin.

For acoustic work, Hendrix had a very nice, heavily inlayed Martin guitar.

[neverusespinky]

Well, I do love all this, however, I am a musician and am deciding it best to just pay for a studio booking. I am glad to know place to get some background. The great thing about blues, what I play mostly, is that I can do it all live in the studio. I am looking at Mackoche Recording Studio in the Dakatos. At 75 to 125 an hour, it is also Native owned and I am Navajo, but that only matters a small amount, of course results is most important. They have a Neotek Elite 32 Input, and was wondering if anyone has any experience or knowledge about these. It would be tracked to 2". Also their mic department is not all what I am looking for, and looking for rental options, if there are any suggestions, they work with "Dreamhire" for rentals but I am trying to open up my options. This is all unsigned independent music. Payed for with club dates and day jobs.

[ted nightshade]

neverusespinky- first, use your pinky! Second, see what stuff sounds like, end result, at that place- listen to what they did. The people matter more than the gear. Listen to what they did somewhere else- look until you find the right PERSON.
Off topic, sorry Klaus, but good luck.

[eligit]

just a small note.

the sound of jimi playing was 90% his fingers/heart/soul/inspiration


and 10% guitars, amps, mic, engineering, etc

maybe a slight overstatement but not by much.