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Author Topic: Disaster relief and other atrocities  (Read 2936 times)

lucey

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Disaster relief and other atrocities
« on: December 28, 2004, 04:32:55 pm »

Well it's horrible to be sure, and donating money to the Red Cross sounds like a great idea... I'm gonna do that now.


Yet something about the outpouring here is troubling to me, as this natural disaster is no more important than many deaths in this world every day...


For one thing there are starving Americans right now, some freezing to death in the cold in our own cities.  There are Americans losing their jobs and their livelihood to cheap foreign labor in countries with no human rights laws (like China) all the time ... there is a family in my county with 18 people (actually it's 2 families) and no heat and no running water and Head Start can't afford to help them because Bush cuts funding every year since 2000.  

For another thing, their Government was warned and failed to do anything to help it's own people. Thousands of lives could have been saved.  Sound familiar?



Everyday there is a tragedy or two or two thousand ...  and no one posts here for those problems to have money given.

In Africa's Sudan hundreds of thousands are dying this year alone in a Genocide of disgusting proportions ... and where is the call to our own Government, the most powerful in the world, to act on this?  Aid workers are having to leave due to the violence and America does nothing substantive.  

This is hundreds of thousands dead ... not 50,000.




Did we all give money to the US Hurricane people this last year? Did we all give money to the Democrats to get the people out of office who failed to protect America and who daily put us at greater risk by running the Terrorist Recruiting Campaign called War in Iraq?  The ones that did not heed the increased "chatter" and warnings of the Summer of 2002; the ones who were myopic on state-sponsored terrorism since 2000 ... and to this day?

The Tsunami is horrible, yet why do we have more giving for poor Asians than we do for poor Americans in our cold streets, or the poor Africans being slaughtered by their own government while the US govn't sits on it's hands while going full tilt on it's pet project in the Middle East?

Why are we not jumping up and down at death in Africa and joblessness and homelessness in America when it can be helped by our own Government?

This tragedy in SE Asia, a natural disaster ... was unstoppable.

The other tragedies are human.  Some are not obvious, some are not, but the deaths are there everyday.



Finally I wonder ... will this be a flash in the pan outpouring?  A nice Christmas time diversion from the real problems of our world so we can feel like we are the good, rich, fortunate American's who come in and help?  Of course we are the rich, fortunate Americans, but why not help in other ways?  Anyone remember "Feed the World" or "Live Aid"?  

Remember the 80's when we cared about Africa and other fad causes?

Remember Earth Day for a few years there when we cared about the environment?



I will give money now as I'm able, and I hope you all do, but the bigger problems are man made.  

I hope we all spend some brain power and some money on them in 2005 as well.

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Brian Lucey
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bblackwood

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2004, 04:49:00 pm »

This was split off the disaster relief thread in my forum as it contains so many more topics than I wished to cover, but I think all of them are important.

When do we start demanding that something happens in the Sudan? Does it have to become another Rwanda with millions slaughtered first?

These are tough issues to deal with, and I thank Brian for bringing them up...
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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2004, 07:00:46 pm »

I dunno... to me [a devout atheist] I go directly to a "Rudy Cheeks" [Young Adults] quote: 'Sometimes the good lord deals a shitty hand].

As has been mentioned before, there are too many disasters every year for us to become individually involved.  I for one am for picking one to which you can relate and do what you can for them.

For me, I donate time and some money to causes relevant to my world.  Shit like the local "teen center" where I've found a couple kids doing drugs and had a nice little talk with them... then found them a gig and hang with them to keep them on the 'straight and narrow' as much as possible [I've also done drug workshops with some parents in the area, mostly parents of kids I've found fucked up at the local teen center].

The kids there like me because I don't preach nor talk down to them... there is a bit of respect because I've "been there, done that" and have told them stories of different crew guys and musos that I've watched go down to dope.

The idea, working with their parents, is not to keep them sober as a judge, but to get them to "pick their spots" so that 'drinking and drugging' doesn't interfere with their real lives.  Like don't get stoned at school... finish your homework before you spark that joint... shit like that.

So far so good.

Do I feel for the most recent victims in the 'natural disaster lottery'?  Hell yeah.  Will I do anything about it?  Nope, not really.

I have exceptionally limited charitable resources, I can't save the world [hell, I can't even save audio!!] so I'm putting my resources into a local project... maybe it's selfish, trying to make the place I live a little better... but my feeling is that charity begins at home, and this is my home.

I'm sure my tax dollars with be at work in disaster relief... I just wish we could divert resources from the desert to the current venue of real mass tragedy.

Just my take on it...
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CN Fletcher

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2004, 07:32:29 pm »

I still say that the current leadership ,the White House and the extreme right wing in this country who like,for some strange reason to call themselves Christians,believe they are better people than the people who can't pay their heat bill this month.They think God sees them differently than the 23 year old addict who can't kick,without real help. When they say they believe in independence and self reliance, what they really mean is," if you can't figure it out for yourself,then you deserve what you get." I believe this to be the case because over and over again,they say and do things that PROVE this. When they say they love America, they only mean they like Americans who believe THEIR version of THEIR religion. They think the rest are going to hell. As for helping in Africa, they don't think it's important because it doesn't move their agenda forward. They think God wants THEM to be successful because they have been chosen by God. I,have not been chosen by God, according to them.

The American people were warned about these folks by,arguably, the most brilliant historians and political scientists in the world.The American people are just now beginning to see what these folks are up to,starting with Iraq and at one point or another, enough kids will die and the people will start to pay attention. I think it might be to late. We will have let them change our country for the worse in quite a permanent way by the time we do anything.

I hold the opinion that W is very bad news and he should be in jail for what he has done. Yes, I believe with all my heart that I,,ME,,very average little old me and the average American people trying to get by are better people than they are. I think they are evil and if we don't wake up, we will be in a constant state of war. War that we have brought on ourselves.


Watch the middle class in this country go away. Just watch.

I love our country. I wish they loved our country to but,a country is made of it's people and, they don't love us..

Just listen to them talk about moral values. It makes me sick. I really am deeply troubled by all this and kinda don't know how to help. I am afraid for my young son.
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seriousfun

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2004, 07:47:15 pm »

I, too, just gave a few dollars for tsunami relief. Doctors Without Borders at http://www.kintera.org/site/lookup.asp?c=foIJKQMFF&b=898 44 will take money dedicated to this cause.

We who have it should give some money, right now, because this is a problem of the moment, and it cuts across all religious and political borders. Tsunami disasters are rare in the Indian Ocean, so even with all the money in the world they might not have been able to plan properly for this.

Our problems, in this country and western civilization, in general are choices. If we want the rich to stop getting richer while the poor get poorer, raise literacy rates, lower infant mortality rates, etc., we have to work over a long-term period. Most of us find that difficult - we vote in our self-interest, and vote with our wallets. It is hard for any passion - whether for music, sex, or society - to sustain itself over a long period of time.

Even in perspective (of politically-motivated wars, natural and man-made disasters, etc.), this tsunami is mighty, mighty big.

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2004, 06:44:21 am »

Nice Post
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David Schober

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2004, 01:45:28 am »

Point well taken Brian.  Unfortunately what usually moves people to action are images on their TV.  These amazing videos of course get everyone's attention much more that written facts about other disasters.  

You mentioned "Live Aid."  It was a BBC TV report that got people moved to act on that one.  While it's good that it caused action, the problem is when TV is the motivating factor, our interest ends with the news cycle.  TV producers will move on to something else when they sense the audience is bored with the story.

This disaster is also a distraction from the UN Oil For Food Scandel investigation.  I found it ironic that a UN spokesman tells the world we need to give them more while the jury is still out on whether his organization committed the biggest robbery in history.  The French only saw fit to pledge $132,000.  Maybe they know where the money really goes.
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David Schober

ted nightshade

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2005, 10:45:11 pm »

Yes, the cause celebre- like we make sure everybody has too much turkey at Thanksgiving, and they can starve the rest of the year.

Right on to Fletcher for his hands on work locally.

ivan40 wrote on Tue, 28 December 2004 16:32


I hold the opinion that W is very bad news and he should be in jail for what he has done.


I disagree.

He should be hanged.
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t(h)ik

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2005, 11:26:12 pm »

Who is going to hang him....

Or is that like, Milosevic "should" be shut down...

Charles Taylor "should" go...

Someone "should" help Asia...

Someone...sometime....

I "should" understand all the shit talking bullshit...

but I don't

The fukken tragedy is about over 100,000 people dying in a horrific disaster, and you're talking about hanging somebody from Texas...Am I getting through....don't you see the absurdity....WTF? Maybe if Michael Moore was there he could have interviewed Marilyn Manson about the tectonic plates....just please take one minute with yourselves and draw the connection...but do me favor and keep it to yourself...


I am pretty much an idiot and have been wrong about a lot of things is my life...

But the Bush hatred.....hmmm...I mean, the guy is a politician...he got where he is by elbowing other ding dong politician in the head on the way up the ladder...who gives a fukk...

What I don't understand is the fact that people recite this mindless fukken mantra.....everyday....and it has nothing to do with reality...

As far as I know Bush never shot any of these freedom fighters over there in the desert....our best and bravest did....I don't think the Marines were duped by some sobered up ding dong in Washington....or don't you think our boys throwin' lead have any free will.....

You see, the reason I take issue is that all you cats bitchin' about George Bush are implying that something "should" be done because he is Hitler...or some shit....it is a call to arms...for men of action....if it were based in reality, I would be on my way home to make things right....or maybe you can explain it to me one more time.....about the camps and book burnings and race baiting and the gestapo....what a crock of fukken shit...



I think he is going to sign the biggest check in the world for the victims of the tsunami...if "someone" doesn't hang him first...

P.S. Brian, You, yes you are the US Government....noone is stopping you from going to Africa to stop the injustice.  I'll be down there latter this year hunting and I would be glad to take some time and go shooting these fukked Arabs that are killing the innocents...or maybe dig a well......I'm serious...in fact....fukk the killing part....let's go to Africa and build a school....or part of a school....it would be fun, we could do our part and learn a lot maybe agree on something....maybe catch malaria....whadya think....I did the orphanage thang for year....very rewarding...I'm sure some of the heavy hitters here would help with the tab....maybe like um....a fukken library...We pick a country....make some contacts...you meet me here in Europe we have some great Italian food and fukk off down to the Dark Continent....(I'm being totally serious)....It's a long plane ride and we could argue the whole fukken way....just think how much entertainment the locals would get out of me destroying all your stupid arguments in front of the tribal elders....

I'm fukken serious...

lemme nough

Between our projects of course....

Or shit I don't know, between you guys calling for the execution of my Pres....maybe you could get off your lazy asses and do something more productive than pop music....

Love yas...

TIKK
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David Schober

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2005, 12:25:09 am »

sixtiksix wrote on Sat, 01 January 2005 22:26

Who is going to hang him....

I think he is going to sign the biggest check in the world for the victims of the tsunami...if "someone" doesn't hang him first...

It's a long plane ride and we could argue the whole fukken way....just think how much entertainment the locals would get out of me destroying all your stupid arguments in front of the tribal elders....


TIKK


Totally agree.  And as one of our best columnists has said this week:

"Not everyone distinguished himself. What to say of those who've latched on to the tragedy to promote their political agendas, from the U.N. official who raced to call the U.S. "stingy," to the global-warming crowd, to administration critics who jumped at the chance to call the president insensitive because he was vacationing in Texas and didn't voice his sympathy quickly enough? Such people are slyly asserting their own, higher sensitivity and getting credit for it, which is odd because what they're actually doing is using dead people to make cheap points."

By the way...If one is critical of Bush being in TX for Christmas, where's the crticism of Annan choosing to spend and extra few days skiing after the disaster before returning to NYC?  


Peace and Happy New Year to all.  Despite our differences I do wish you all well.  
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David Schober

t(h)ik

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2005, 01:03:16 am »

My only critcism of Bush would be for not staying in Texas.....

P.S....

Someone should do something....

This whole world situation is getting on my nerves....

maybe I'll start a blog or sumtin'

Or write a song....

I woke up this morning all in a funk
That fukken Bush sure is a punk
He's the reason my Yankees lost in the final
He's behind the rotteness of my  root canal
He ate the last chocolate that glutoness fukk
Because of him the Asians ran out of luck

He ran over to soon to start shit in Iraq
He stabbed all the Americans in the fukken back
The stupid bastards voted him right back in
And now they're in a war they will never win

He en-slave-d Colon Powell in his web of lies
And he hopes all the soldiers will eventually die
You see it's all his fault and that's a fact
He ate the last Pop tart in the fukken pack

So don't fukken argue about Saddam's atrocities
I'm much more inclined toward Michael Moores prophecies...
I'm intellectual you see and I know it all...

It's just a fukken shame I was born without balls....

Just ask me again tomorrow, cause I recite it a lot
Just like the jackasses braying on the idiot box...

So for me hanging him is no big deal (not me, I have to go to the AES show)
Cause you see little Condi's not keeping it real
I hope someday you fukks can admit the real truth...
And repeat the mantra , Fukk! I hate BUSH!!!!!!

Cause is was Bush who fukked the redman not you and me
And as far as I know he's the only one guilty

I'm so much more sensitive like Tupac the rapper
Instead of action I just fire up my yapper....

(actually Tupac did more than most Bush haters...he actually went  out and murdered people....but he used a different venacular to describe said victims)

Hope you are enjoying your New Years like I am.....

OK I edited this after some Glen Morangie and Land Bier...

sorry...

Zack Wilde Guitar solo here...

Your friend in the Fatherland...

TIKK





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ted nightshade

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2005, 06:31:30 pm »

I could care less where W was for Xmas.

I would like to see the Geneva Convention enforced though. It's under those auspices that I would like to see things proceed.

Not that any such thing is likely to happen!
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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t(h)ik

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2005, 03:21:10 am »

Geneva Convention Enforced.....

Well the first question is...

When was the Geneva Convention not enforced?

And the second and possibly more philosophical question is: Who the fukk is going to enforce it?
(meaning the US and England?)
(Or do you think France will suddenly give a fukk?)

Getting down to the nitty gritty...

Let me skip a little ahead here cause I don't want to argue, I want to learn...
If you are referring to Abu Ghraib, the US Government (that's you and me) threw the soldiers who did that in the slammer for up to eight years.

The Marine who beat the prisoner to death is awaiting trial.

Lemme nough when the revolution begins and we burn Washington because of......because of some shit.....whatever that is....


Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.


Your Agent for ruining Europe...

TIKK
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Invisible Member

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 11:07:42 am »

Ok now that B-Lucey has open the door and I was thinking something along the same lines, not just how our government picks and chooses aid, but the UN as well.

UN Sanctions caused 90,000 death per year in Iraq, complicated even further by Saddam abusing the UN over-anxiousness to make money. The US got bit in a similar problem during Pol Pots regime but the news didn't say much then. Kerry helped investigate the problem but didn't say much because it was under both Carter and Reagans watch.

Rwanda, Congo, Ethiopia... Count them up and the number of people murdered is well into low millions. All the while the UN (including the US)debated how many have to die before a "civil war" becomes genocide.

Clintons wars in no less than 8 different countries during his 8 years in office.  Tenet has evil plans in which both Bush and Clinton got suckered. If it wasn't for Monica and the media more people might have seen we were bombing Iraq almost daily for years. I didn't like Bush or Clinton but I have seen both men try to do good and only get stabbed in the back by the media and other politicians. There is good reason the Intel community is being gutted and remolded by Bush... and Clinton was starting to do it but Tenet and Reno were more convincing at that time of the transition. The Patriot Act was penned by Reno and Tenet but Clinton rejected it. After 9-11 it was reintroduced and accepted because it was alstheyhad to work with.

I guess my point is that I find it kinda sickening when I see people and or governments reacting to one tradegy while turning their backs on another. Humanitarian aid should be applied evenly on all humans not just humans that benefit your politics and pocketbook.

Considering the TV ratings of the news during this lastest natural disaster tradegy I wonder if the the media outlets are more to blame. I really don't know but it doesn't seem right to me.

Does it seem right that American won't go to war to save 90,000 peopleper year dying under a evil dictatorship until it threatens you personally or your investments. Obviously Iraq is complex and dynamic with several reason for it, but the question I have is which goverment is going to dig in the deepest Southeast Asia as a political move and the humanitarian aid is nothing more than a distraction to the real motives?

It's how I feel if you know what I mean.

Peace,
Dennis




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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2005, 01:06:09 am »

Fletcher, I did not see this thread until now and I must say that local level involment is MOST important. We cannot save the world nor can our Govt or our tax dollars because, well, we can't. Too big. We have children starving here. I gave some to the IRC just "because" but local efforts are far more personal and the results help the community. An owner of the local BMW dealership and me are decent aquaintances and this cat goes out of his way all the time to help local situations. I get a call from him...hey, I am doing this, want to get together? And boom, we are on it assholes and elbows. We got hammered by the hurricane Ivan to total destruction and when we were able to dig out and get some food in here, our calling was to help thy neighbor and this goes on today and will for at least another year. We were nailing roofs on houses last week.

Our local people need us too so after this subsides folks, reach out to your community and do what you can. It really helps in major and minor ways you may never know..but help is help.
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lucey

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2005, 03:51:19 am »

The Geneva Convention is not being enforced at Guantanamo on 'detainees'.

The Attorney General elect decided it was not in play for this war, that's not a war anyway.



Either it IS or it IS NOT a war?  I say it is not.
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Brian Lucey
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t(h)ik

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Re: Disaster relief and other atrocities
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2005, 07:41:26 am »

Brian,

Please let me apologize again for anytime I got too excited in the past about this stuff......

I have been of course reading your other posts throughout the forum and although we disagree here and there, I owe you the respect for helping others and taking the time to give your opinion on the wide variety of subjects throughout the forum...

Without people who are willing to help, losers like myself would never get a laig up....

As for your lame-o communist propaganda  Cool (I hope you will remember that this is opinion, and what do I know...)

Which fukken article of the Geneva convention is being broken.

You see, in '45 they would have been shot for not wearing a uniform....like....on the spot...and by the way we can look it up....but that is in the Geneva convention....

I don't want to win (even though I usually do) this argument I would like to be informed about how my countrymen are rat-bastards....on the whole and these other folk pitching children into pits are really misunderstood underdogs and need to be defended....

I anxiously await your opinion....

Your friendly nemesis in the fatherland...

TIK
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