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[Joe Crawford]

Thankyou Dan... for being a voice of reason crying out in the wilderness of marketing hype and theoretical bull.  Your posts in both the word clock thread and the 192k thread are right on the mark.  

The discussions (more like arguments) in those threads remind me of the battles between the physics department and the engineering department when I was in school in the 60's (e.g. physics professor: "The theory says do it this way ....",  engineering professor: "That's nice in theory, but if you want it to work you'd better do it this way ....").  I've also been through the wringer a few times trying to explain to marketing why a product they "desperately need" either can't be built (their response: "Don't tell me why it won't work, tell me how to make it work") or is a totally ridiculous idea and doesn't provide any useful function (they really don't want to here this one).

It has always amazed me how some one can read a few books, take a few courses, or talk to a few customers and 'experts-in-the-field' and decide that they know infinitely more than the engineer that has specified, designed, built, shipped and supported half a dozen similar products for the last millennia or so.

I finally got fed up and dropped out about 10 years ago (went sailing for a few years) so my technical knowledge is a little out-of-date.  But, an awful lot the ‘facts’ presented on these forums still peg my ‘blip’ (i.e. non-sense) meter.  It sure is nice to find someone competent who doesn’t mind telling the truth, regardless of whom it might upset.

Please keep up the good work and thank you again…

Joe Crawford
Stony Mountain Studio
Shanks, WV 26761

[danlavry]

"It has always amazed me how some one can read a few books, take a few courses, or talk to a few customers and 'experts-in-the-field' and decide that they know infinitely more than the engineer that has specified, designed, built, shipped and supported half a dozen similar products for the last millennia or so".

I noticed the same thing but decided that I would try to look past the imcompetence mascarading as knowledge and actually try to disseminate knowledge. What discusts me is proaudio companies selling consumer grade gear as pro gear.

“I finally got fed up and dropped out about 10 years ago (went sailing for a few years) so my technical knowledge is a little out-of-date. But, an awful lot the ‘facts’ presented on these forums still peg my ‘blip’ (i.e. non-sense) meter. It sure is nice to find someone competent who doesn’t mind telling the truth, regardless of whom it might upset.”

What you said about those that “read a few books, take a few courses, or talk to a few customers and 'experts-in-the-field' and decide that they know…”,

I sometimes wonder if audio has more than it’s fair share of it

Thanks for the kind remarks

best regards
Dan Lavry

[Joe Crawford]

Yea, I guess audio attracts more than it's share of kooks because the sonic side is so subjective.

Hope eveyone has a happy new year...

Joe Crawford

[Eliott James]

Ah but it's a partnership, isn't it? Who would you design the gear for if we subjective kooks weren't on the sonic side?

On the clocking thread..... I've read the arguments and presented my own view of how a good clock can improve the sound of lessor quality converters. My experience. But if I understand Dan correctly, it can't be possible. If I'm right in that understanding I have to ask: Dan, have you tried clocking these lessor converters with a good clock and listened to the results? Even if the science doesn't support it, have you done a listening test to see if it might be possible for some reason unknown?

If I'm wrong in my understanding of your position, I apoligize in advance.

[bobkatz]

Eliott James wrote on Thu, 30 December 2004 21:24

Ah but it's a partnership, isn't it? Who would you design the gear for if we subjective kooks weren't on the sonic side? On the clocking thread..... I've read the arguments and presented my own view of how a good clock can improve the sound of lessor quality converters. My experience. But if I understand Dan correctly, it can't be possible.

Compared to what? Consider an inferior converter with an inferior internal clock, and a mediocre PLL. Feed it a good internal clock, the converter's mediocre PLL degrades it slightly, and then evaluate. It sounds better than the internal! Gee whiz....

BK

[Nika Aldrich]

Thanks also to Dan for presenting his very rational perspective.  I have long been calling for more science in this industry to balance the subjectivity.  Dan provides a few peoples' worth of this approach.

Thanks for the help and good work, Dan.

Nika

[Eliott James]

BK,
This is what I was referring to, from the clocking thread.

Dan Lavry said:

A few people said that the external clock improved their poor AD’s. I am not at all convinced of it, accept in very rare cases.  ......
I am amazed at how much talk and focus has been given lately to clocks. Yes, you may need an external clock, but it is not the “next step in improving conversion” like so many people were convinced of.  

My simple question to Dan is, have you done a listening test to determine if there is an audible difference when clocking poor converters to a better clock?

[Eliott James]

In the clocking thread, Dan lavry wrote recently:

We are not about listening tests here.

That answers my question.

[danlavry]

Eliott James wrote on Sun, 02 January 2005 03:08

In the clocking thread, Dan lavry wrote recently: We are not about listening tests here. That answers my question.

Leaving the listening tests aside, let me clarify it once again: An external clock WILL NOT, and CAN NOT reduce the jitter of an AD box operating in external clock mode!

When operating in external mode, the question is: How much more jitter will the external clock setup ADD TO the PLL circuit jitter. The external clock CAN NOT REDUCE THE JITTER OF THE AD PLL CIRCUIT.

So your proposed listening test is COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES. You are comparing an AD operating with internal clock with it’s performance using external clock.

It is unlikely that an AD will have an internal clock worse than external clock driving a PLL. Unlikely, but possible.

When you find such a beast, assuming you want to keep it, don’t buy the complete BS story that some particular clock source has some magical properties to improve the AD clock. If one clock box will improve it, another clock box with about the same jitter will also improve it.

The statement regarding external clocks reduces jitter is flat out NOT TRUE. When anyone back paddle from a technical argument to a fuzzy statement “but it sounds better”, they are in fact saying that jitter can be good, which is as ridicules as a $500 wood knob for your solid gold speaker wires suspended in the air by young blond vegetarian acrobats…

Regards
Dan Lavry

[Eliott James]

I said in the Clocking thread:

Many smaller studio, and yes, the project guys, don't use the best converters. They can't afford multiple channels of ins and outs of great converters. When you can clock these less expensive converters to a better clock, the whole rig sounds better. I have done this myself clocking a MOTU rig with a Mytek 2 channel AD converter. It does sound better that way. I think that is what Apogee is addressing in their marketing.


BK responded:

I agree.


My contention is only that clocking a MOTU rig with a Mytek sounded better to me. I am not at all sure why. I had nothing to gain one way or the other because I was using the Mytek at the time and hooked it up to see what would happen. If it did nothing for the sound, so be it. If it made it worse, I'd say so. But it improved the sound.

If I read Bob correctly, he agreed the sound can be improved that way.

I'm not arguing that jitter sounds better. Could something else be at play here besides deceptive hearing?

[Level]

Quote:

I'm not arguing that jitter sounds better. Could something else be at play here besides deceptive hearing?

Better sound is better sound. Even if it measures worse!

[danlavry]

Level wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 04:01

Quote: I'm not arguing that jitter sounds better. Could something else be at play here besides deceptive hearing? Better sound is better sound. Even if it measures worse!

Here we go again. There are times one can  claim that something measures worse but sounds better. THIS IS NOT SUCH A CASE.

Let me repeat some of what I said just a couple of days ago:

Your "listening test" is COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES. You are comparing an AD operating with internal clock with it’s performance using external clock.

It is unlikely that an AD will have an internal clock worse than external clock driving a PLL. Unlikely, but possible.

When you find such a beast, assuming you want to keep it, don’t buy the complete BS story that some particular clock source has some magical properties to improve the AD clock. If one clock box will improve it, another clock box with about the same jitter will also improve it.

When you find such a beast, it has a badly designed internal clock and not as bad PLL. That is pretty junky stuff.

If you want to keep it, fine. If it sounds better with external, fine! If someone wants to sell you that external will improve your conversion on anything but real bad gear, not fine!

Regards
Dan Lavry
http://www.lavryengineering.com

[PookyNMR]

danlavry wrote on Mon, 03 January 2005 14:13

When anyone back paddle from a technical argument to a fuzzy statement ?but it sounds better?, they are in fact saying that jitter can be good, which is as ridicules as a $500 wood knob for your solid gold speaker wires suspended in the air by young blond vegetarian acrobats?

What are you saying Dan?  I find that vegetarian acrobats and wood knobs improve my AD clock!  

[danlavry]

PookyNMR wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 16:42

danlavry wrote on Mon, 03 January 2005 14:13 When anyone back paddle from a technical argument to a fuzzy statement ?but it sounds better?, they are in fact saying that jitter can be good, which is as ridicules as a $500 wood knob for your solid gold speaker wires suspended in the air by young blond vegetarian acrobats? What are you saying Dan?  I find that vegetarian acrobats and wood knobs improve my AD clock!

“What are you saying Dan?  I find that vegetarian acrobats and wood knobs improve my AD clock!  :)”

I have been criticized for not listening to what the customers are saying. This is a new year and I will try to change my ways and be more open minded.
So here we go:

1. What kind of wood, pine? Oak?
2. How many blonds per foot
3. What happens when they get tired of holding the cable?
4. How do you make sure they are real blonds?

Regards
Dan Lavry

[PookyNMR]

danlavry wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 13:19

I have been criticized for not listening to what the customers are saying. This is a new year and I will try to change my ways and be more open minded. So here we go: 1. What kind of wood, pine? Oak? 2. How many blonds per foot 3. What happens when they get tired of holding the cable? 4. How do you make sure they are real blonds?

1)  It's actually PVC with a Brazilian Rosewood veneer.  We all know it helps bring out the frequencies above 86 GHz which we all also know makes the sound 'warm' and 'punchy'.

2)  Well if we use the Fullabull equation as advertised in StereoScam magaizne, we'll find that we'll need 1 blonde for every 2 feet or 1 red head for every 3 feet.  (Red heads just do somethings better.)

3)  Steroids.

4)  If they are dumb enough to color their hair blonde, does it really matter?