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Author Topic: ...on the polishing of turds  (Read 10572 times)

Leo

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2004, 03:19:02 PM »

Can't polish a terd, but you can serve it on a golden platter.
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Leo Goff III

Brendo

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 12:33:05 AM »

You can't polish a turd, but you can disguise it as, say, a chocolate bunny...
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From Douglas Adams and John Lloyd's "The Meaning of Liff":

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Bob Olhsson

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 10:33:22 AM »

Just for the record, we owe the whole concept to Jerry Lewis who was heard screaming "You can't polish a turd!" at the top of his lungs as he walked out of a film editing room at a major Hollywood studio. It spread like wildfire throughout the entertainment industry.

Level

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2004, 10:34:40 AM »

Who said the one, "who put the turd in the punchbowl" ?
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dcollins

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2004, 05:00:50 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 24 December 2004 07:33

Just for the record, we owe the whole concept to Jerry Lewis who was heard screaming "You can't polish a turd!" at the top of his lungs as he walked out of a film editing room at a major Hollywood studio. It spread like wildfire throughout the entertainment industry.


Like clowns in a concentration camp?

http://www.filmthreat.com/Features.asp?File=FeaturesOne.inc& amp;Id=258
DC

Bill Mueller

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2004, 10:08:39 PM »

Ken,

It seems to me that your question may have a few layers to it. The answer may be:

Simple is good. Simple may be best. Fast is not bad. Spontaneity can be golden. Trust yourself.

About thirty years ago, George M made an offhand remark to me during a session, that I have relied on ever since. He said, "It's not what you put in, it's what you leave out." He was talking about using both cut and boost with an EQ. At the time, most engineers I had met, only knew how to boost the high frequencies with an EQ and George knew about subtractive equalization and just how powerful it was. Since he was the one who designed and build the best EQ I had ever heard I took this to heart. Kind of like a mantra. I am sure I have used it for a dozen things that he did not intend for it to affect, but it does.

Mixing: I have had many clients bring back the rough mix I whipped together after the last vocal session and complain that their final mix did not sound as good. I then explain that I can get back to that mix quickly, but they might have to refrain from overmixing it themselves. I am never heavy handed with a client, but many times they are their own worst enemy. Especially bands that end up mixing songs politically. Simple is good.

Musical arrangements: Busy is bad. Over production is bad. Leave space for the audience to sing along. The essence of the song is found in it's simplest form. If it is not there, there is no song. Move on.

Making music quickly, commercial or otherwise, can be a result of confidence in one's ability and the knowledge of what sounds good. IMHO, the very hardest thing to learn in the industry is what sounds good.

Second guessing yourself is NOT being a perfectionist! Get it right. Once it's right, leave it alone.

Friends: Give me a few good ones.

Life: You can add things, goals, pressure, clutter to your life until the essence of what makes you happy is lost among the chrome doo dads. If you haven't opened a box for a year, you probably don't need it unless it is pictures of your kids, or tapes of your wife's old band. Yes, I married the singer and were still together 25 years later.

Merry Christmas all.

Best Regards,

Bill
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bobkatz

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 11:09:43 AM »

Bill Mueller wrote on Fri, 24 December 2004 22:08



Second guessing yourself is NOT being a perfectionist! Get it right. Once it's right, leave it alone.




and other wonderful comments!

Let me add: the more "clients" there are in the control room, the more watered down, hyped, totally "in your face" the mix becomes. BK's law of diminishing returns.

Can you say, "More Me, please"?  Sad

And I also say, "Making good sound is like preparing good food. If you overcook, it loses its taste."

Merry Christmas to all,


Bob
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

PP

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 12:15:57 PM »

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bobkatz

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2004, 12:24:58 PM »

Poyser wrote on Sat, 25 December 2004 12:15

Merry Christmas Bob!

God bless Mary and yourself, Your sister, and all your family and loved ones...

I hope you have a really Happy Holiday!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Best Wishes

Peter



Same to you, Peter, whoever your "Mary" is over there. At the time I write this, Christmas day has turned into Christmas night for you.

BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

PP

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2004, 12:42:13 PM »

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RMoore

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2004, 08:04:20 PM »

<I've always considered following it on my reel with a mix of what it sounded like before I transformed that piece of shit into the final product.  Maybe when VH1 does "Extreme Make Over: The Hip Hop Edition". >


Would love to hear MP3s of before and after!
RM
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Keith Smith

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2004, 11:55:25 AM »

Hello all, I hope your Christmas was at least half as nice as mine.

My little sojourn in the Rockies bought me about 5 hours of reading Bob Katz' Mastering Audio beside the fire, with my notebook at hand on Dec. 24. Bob, was it as good for you as it was for me? Smile

It was also nice to get far enough away from the turds to see the, er, bog? I haven't turned this system on for almost a week and now I'm afraid to hear what I was working on.

I'd like to thank everyone for the additional posts, particularly Bill Mueller and Bob Katz.

Bill, your reference to GM's comments remind me of Ansel Adams very excellent series on photography (one of my greatest treasures). Mr. Adams best tool was his ability to previsualize the print long before he exposed the film. The whole process, after that defining moment,  was designed to bring the original (and usually fully developed), concept to the finished print. His discipline to this principle was unwavering and was always evident in the stunning artistic clarity of his finished works -It even shows in the few examples of his commercial work, I've seen.

This makes me wonder how very often tyros like me are tempted to approach the recording part of the process as mere data gathering. It's quite shameful, isn't it? And then we expect to be able to mine this pile of rabble and use a bunch of sexy plugins to extract gold from a slag heap!

More often than not, for my own work, where no invoice is written, it doesn't really start that way. It's often just recording to document the form or concept of a tune, and then something nice happens, which leads to many hours of trying to get a guitar sound that just isn't there because the recording preceded the concept development. The net result is volumes of stuff that's 'almost' there.

So I guess the real turd is the one that's recorded by a client for a price, and the price of rerecording precludes the completion of concept development (by both artist and recordist) and so you get out the files, and the 600 grit paper to produce something that pleases no one.




Bob, if you're keeping an eye on this thread, I do have one question (of many which need to be properly formulated), and I'm not at all sure this is the best place to post it, but here goes:

In implementing the K-system you make several references to calibrating monitors to 83dB, sometimes with pink noise and other times with a 1kHz sine wave. This has left me a bit confused. What I've ended up doing is marking my Firepod interface monitor control with K-20, 14 and 12 positions, and marking my reference amp output controls with Sine and Pink noise positions. I do expect there are non-linearities where the two pieces interact but this does seem to be better than what I was doing before (nothing consistently). My RMS meter is a plugin in the last slot of Cubase's output buss, and my SPL meter is (you guessed it), Radio Shack.

From simply looking at the knobs, it seems that the gain structure makes more sense with the amp set at sine (about 75% of the setting scale). For the sine wave calibration the amp is at 100%.

Does this make sense? I'd really appreciate a few words on when to use sine/pink. I'm also just bit suspicious about the quality of pink noise noise generators in general. I've beeen using my Roland VS-2480 for this purpose. The sine wave output seems to be rock solid, as one should expect, but the pink noise seems to have the peak meters jumping around quite a bit, which makes me wonder how well 'integtrated' (?) the pink noise is.

Thanks to everyone,

Keith

PP

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2004, 01:25:06 PM »

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Keith Smith

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2004, 02:12:14 PM »

Thank you Peter!

The only thing I might add to that, in (unfortunately) far less prosaic a style, is that Adams in his writing, is always acutely aware of the utter abstraction that is monochromatic photography. I'm not sure he would agree with:

"The medium does not colour or re-interpret the translation of the subject…..

But merely provides a trustworthy faithful rendering......

Even in humble black and white…"

Although I am sure he liked
"To stun….. And amaze us……"

It is, I think, particulary in this realm of abstraction in a seemingly realistic medium, that Adams would have excelled in audio and found himself arm in arm with GM! (He did abandon a promising future as a concert pianist to pursue photography.)
And perhaps it is in this artistic existential warp between the real and the un... that most of us live and never find our way out of; never being able to discern with confidence which way is North, South, up, down, or simply correct. Those who find the map, as did Adams, seem to be those who can consistently tame the science without losing the artistic sense of wonder. It seems to me there are lots of places in Audio where the zone system might be directly imported -assuming the goal was a full scale print!

Oh, my! A full scale print. Everything from full black to brilliant white. What a novel concept to bring to audio in the 21st century!

Smile I don't suppose I'd be the first on this forum to raise such a spectre. Ah! It'll never sell...

Keith

PS: I find myself imagining my trying to appreciate and Adams in the visual equivalent of a car, with at least a 0.3 density of fog over all the highlights... Kind of like visiting an art gallery while the city is burning.

Jeff Gazdacko

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Re: ...on the polishing of turds
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2004, 02:17:48 PM »

Keith Smith wrote on Wed, 29 December 2004 16:55


Does this make sense? I'd really appreciate a few words on when to use sine/pink. I'm also just bit suspicious about the quality of pink noise noise generators in general. I've beeen using my Roland VS-2480 for this purpose. The sine wave output seems to be rock solid, as one should expect, but the pink noise seems to have the peak meters jumping around quite a bit, which makes me wonder how well 'integtrated' (?) the pink noise is.

Thanks to everyone,

Keith


Without getting into the specifics I'll just say that sine waves are great for calibrating equipment and pink noise is great for calibrating rooms/spaces.  They are drastically different signals and they cause equipment/rooms (acoustics) to react in different ways.

If you need more explanation just say so, I'll chime in if no one else does.

-Jeff Gazdacko
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