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Author Topic: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????  (Read 26243 times)

tanov

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2004, 09:42:52 AM »

Yes, when I listen to ToTo - Tambu I used to boost 35Hz.
The room with audio system (bedroom) is 10 meters far from the sweet spot (in the kitchen). I can't hear 35Hz in front
of sound monitors but in the kitchen it's loud  Very Happy

So there is "length of the wave"
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Bill Mueller

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 10:20:42 AM »

Beth,

If someone else already answered this issue for you, I appologize. I thought I would give it a shot before we run out for Christmas Eve at Mom's.

The physical size of perceivable sound waves range from over 56' long down to a fraction of an inch. Therefor (especially in smaller rooms) low frequencies interact with a room in dramatically different ways than mid or high frequencies. Below about 80hz (approx 14' wavelength) you will not develop a complete waveform in a typical small room and therefor the direct sound from the speakers interacts with a partial (reflected) waveform at a particular point in its phase (from 0 to 360 degrees). This interaction will cause deep comb filtering, that changes from point to point in the room dependant on the phase of the reflected wave. At 180 degrees, the two waves are fully out of phase and will cancel completely, causing troughs of 30 to 40 db. This phase relationship changes for every point in the room! If you eq your speakers for a point where you sit or place a microphone, a few inches up/down/right/left of that will be very different. Just the act of moving over to adjust your eq (in the rack) and then moving back is enough to invalidate your adjustment.

Low frequency problems are omnidirectional and can only be perceived as gain changes. Because music dictates that frequencies change constantly, it is difficult to accurately perceive the exact frequency of interference. Trying to eq a room at low frequencies in MHO in futile and doomed to failure. You are trying to eat your soup with a fork. Better to arrance your monitors and listening position for minimum low frequency interaction and maximum distance from directly radiating surfaces. This usually means placing your monitors as close to the front wall as possible and moving your listening position to the front half of the room.

This direct/reflected relationship remains in lesser and lesser degree up to about 400 hz, at which point there are usually enough reflected waves from enough surfaces that the phase relationship becomes complex and less influencial. At this point the room is not contributing so much to the raw gain of the signal through phase interaction, but to the perceved gain through ambient extension (reverb). Some frequencies sound louder because they last longer, while others die away more quickly and therefor sound softer. Eq'ing monitors in the mid range affects how LOUD the signal is, not how LONG it lasts, which is the real problem. While it is certainly possible to subjectively affect the perceived loudness of a mid range signal with eq, it is preferable to either redirect the early reflections away from the listening position (RFZ Reflection Free Zone) or absorb them with mid frequency absorption. I suggest that you refer to Ethan Winers posts for solid insight here.

At extremely high frequencies the room does not really contribut ambience without obvious and directional effects like flutter echo and "pinging". These noises are easily observed and so when somone wants to "treat" a room, they put carpeting or fiberglass in to "deaden" it. Unfortunatelly, this has no affect on the lower frequency problems and serves to just confuse the performance all the more. This range is also is where eq is most effective. Most "treated" rooms have very little high frequency reflections and the perceived signal is almost all direct from the monitors. Turn it up or down at your leisure.

All of the above of course, relies on a ruler flat monitor system. We know that until very recently, there were very few of these around. If you eq a room to compensate for non linearities in the SOURCE, (those JBL's in the wall) then you are correctly using a spanner on a nut, otherwise your eating your soup with a fork.

Best Regards, Happy Holidays!

Bill

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Sweet Spot

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 06:14:55 PM »

Wow! Thank you Bill! I totally understand what you are saying. You must be an incredible teacher.I knew that waves were different lengths and especially bass waves were very long. I just didn't put together, what these great engineers were trying to tell me about the phase problems! I understand it now. Thank you! It seem obvious.
I hope you and yours have a GREAT Christmas!
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Have A GREAT DAY! ((smile))
Beth

Sweet Spot

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2004, 06:24:41 PM »

Thanks to all of you super smart folks for helping me understand this! I can only hope to re-pay the favor someday.
This is the best site on the web !
Hope you all have a Wonderful Holiday!
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Have A GREAT DAY! ((smile))
Beth

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2004, 07:57:26 PM »

Enjoy your holiday and never hesitate to ask. Some really kind and bright folks here.
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Brendo

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2004, 11:37:13 PM »

Sweet Spot wrote on Thu, 23 December 2004 10:58

Before adding the eq to the JBLs though, i don't see how anyone could have referenced them? Unless they spent hours upon hours learning to live with them!
Thanks again for the replies!


I've only ever seen "big" speakers used for MIXING as a "real world" reference - similar to the way you use an Auratone to hear what the song will sound like through a clock radio... but in this situation it's more like "what will this song sound like through a big set of JBL's"... Otherwise, I thought they were mostly to impress the clients and for pumping up the volume when they ask for more...


BTW, the way I read the topic of this post was, "EQing monitors to COMPENSATE for your ears", i.e. if you have a dip at 2k in your right ear only, boosting 2k in the right speaker only until it sounds even in both ears? Or cutting 2k in the left?

Would THIS be acceptable practice, or would you just have to learn to mix with what seems to be less 2k in the right?
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sdevino

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 10:54:38 AM »

brendo_91 wrote on Fri, 24 December 2004 23:37



BTW, the way I read the topic of this post was, "EQing monitors to COMPENSATE for your ears", i.e. if you have a dip at 2k in your right ear only, boosting 2k in the right speaker only until it sounds even in both ears? Or cutting 2k in the left?

Would THIS be acceptable practice, or would you just have to learn to mix with what seems to be less 2k in the right?



I would think that this would make things sound unnaturally bright to the listener. Our perception of "flat" in everyday life includes the dips and peaks in our hearing response. It seems to me that aving those dips suddenly compensated for in a particular environment would sound "unnatural" and result in mixes with insufficient levels in the frequency ranges that were hyped.

i.e. if your natural hearing has a 2dB dip at 2k in one ear, that becomes your reference "norm". If you suddenly sit in a studio where 2k was boosted 2dB in the right monitor, you would feel like there is too much 2k and tend to cut it back in your mixes to get it to "normal".

Does this make sense?

Steve
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bobkatz

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 11:12:54 AM »

brendo_91 wrote on Fri, 24 December 2004 23:37




BTW, the way I read the topic of this post was, "EQing monitors to COMPENSATE for your ears", i.e. if you have a dip at 2k in your right ear only, boosting 2k in the right speaker only until it sounds even in both ears? Or cutting 2k in the left?




It amounts to the same difference, because you're trying to EQ to what you hear. Same analogy: Unless you can insert an equalization that is an exact mirror of the phase and amplitude of the error in your hearing, you'll probably do more harm than good. Especially when you take the room response and its time response in mind, while you're trying to equalize in the amplitude domain, the room is also adding its own "equalization" in the time domain, which you cannot (easily) compensate for.
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PP

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2004, 11:37:28 AM »

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Sweet Spot

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2004, 09:04:40 AM »

Hi Poyser!
  Informative, Intelligent and frickin hilarious I LOVE this place!
Yes It is short for Elizabeth, and yes indeed i am female. As for the rest of your inquiries???? Well im somewhat at a loss for answers!
Thank you for the welcome though!
Hope you had a great Holiday!
P.S. You were right! I moved the eq to the rack, and suddenly everything is much clearer!
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Have A GREAT DAY! ((smile))
Beth

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2004, 12:49:15 PM »

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ammitsboel

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2004, 01:13:37 PM »

Poyser, where have you learned to post like that?  Laughing

Happy Christmas!
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PP

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2004, 01:52:51 PM »

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Peter Weihe

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2004, 06:07:00 PM »

Hello Peter,

Great one!

Best regards,
Peter.
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Peter Weihe

PP

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Re: EQ'ing flat monitors to your ears?????
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2004, 06:30:51 PM »

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