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[clearwave]

I am hired by a songwriting duo to produce an album for them. They hired me because they like some things I've produced in the past. I've done the regular stuff, picked the songs and hired some players. After the tracking session the drummer says he wants to be credited as a co-producer. He helped with the arrangements of the tunes, but all the players did. My approach in tracking is to point the players in a musical direction and see where they take it. If they get off track I'll point them in the direction that better fits the song. The drummer did have some ideas during some guitar overdubs but they kinda sucked. We cut some of them anyway just to try them out and not to hurt his feelings. They probably won't be used. The thing is, if I give credit as a co-producer I'll have to credit the whole band as co-producers. What is a co-producer and what should I do with this guy?

[Fletcher]

Then credit the band as co-producers... unless there is $$ at stake, you're all in it together "producing" the product so what the hell.

There are different roles a "producer" can fill... one role can be to deal with budgets and the "the mooks" while kinda keeping an ear to the music but for the most part letting the muso's do their thing... another role can be to work as a kinda 'shit filter'... in other words to make sure they don't do anything dumb... another role can be that of 'cheerleader', trying to inspire the orchestra to play better than they're actually capable of playing... and then there is the "joint roller" who just sorta sits in the back, rolls joints, keeps the vibe [tight or loose depending on the vibe of the session], contributes little, yet everyone thinks he's a genius.

Basically, if you're all in this together, and you're not in jeapordy of having to share production points... it's all just a bullshit title so you really don't have squat to lose... and it is their band.

As always... YMMV.

[Ross Hogarth]

i feel appropriate credit is due when due and not appropriate when not due.
the title co-producer is usually a point sharing/profit bearing title as producer is.
if the record you make sell records and the co-producers that are credited did not get points, in the end they might have a legal ground to come back and sue for royalties.
in the end these things have to be figured out up front of making the record or else they lay traps.
in my mind a co producer would be the producer's partner from beginning to end.
Very often a band decides to take co production credit since their contribution is equal to the producer for all the time they spend before the producer arrives. sometimes valid, sometimes not.
this is a fine line discussion but one that can certainly heat up a room.

[wwest]

"...and then there is the "joint roller" who just sorta sits in the back, rolls joints, keeps the vibe [tight or loose depending on the vibe of the session], contributes little, yet everyone thinks he's a genius."


I aspire to be this guy............so long as everyone thinks I'm genius!

[joeq]

I think all this cross crediting stuff is getting out of hand.   The fact that the artist makes a contribution to the production should be Understood.   Sure he did this and that- its his damn album.  

I see producers who want co-mixer credit because they sat in the back and told the engineer what they wanted to hear.  Kind of  like  Donald Trump wanting to be called "co-pilot" because he said  "fly me to Albuquerque"

And there are engineers who want co-producer credit because they came up with an "approach" for tracking the drums;  arrangers who want co-writing credit because they came up with a modulation after the bridge.  

Should the editor who Beat Detectived the drum tracks be listed as co-drummer?  

I miss the days when people didn't expect extra credit for basically doing their jobs.   I wish co-credit was reserved for Above and Beyond.

Unfortunately those days  seem to be over and you have to live with the reality of the way things are now.    The politics of cross-crediting are a dangerous rapids -lots of ego and maybe money involved-  and while I personally wish more people would "hold the line"  I think you have to look at each situation as it comes and weigh the possible outcomes.  

[Bob Olhsson]

Why is it that it's always the ones who can't play worth a damn who always want the over-the-top credits? Are you really going to ever call that drummer again?

And then there's the kind of artist who won't LET anybody direct them even though they think using a producer is "the hip thing to do."

OK, I'll crawl back into my hole...

[Fletcher]

Ross Hogarth wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 13:02

if the record you make sell records

...and what are the odds of that happening?

FWIW, at least in my world... if they want a "credit" it's a hell of a lot easier to give it to them and not argue about 'Monopoly money' than it is to get caught up in what "might" accidentally happen... but that's my world.

[John Ivan]

I don't mind sharing producing credit with someone if they are helping me produce the record but, if a drummer has an arrangement idea, this is not producing. Now if the drummer is more involved somehow in the total picture, then fine,he gets credit.I've been on both sides of this issue and it seems that the term "Producer" is being blurred. I've produced records that don't have my name on them and I've done guitar sessions where I end up producing with out any credit. I don't let this happen anymore. If I'm producing,this means I'm responsible for the outcome of the product,period. If I'm a session player, I'm responsible for taking direction and playing the best I can,Period.. I know it sounds a bit harsh but if I'm playing on a record and they start picking my brain for production value stuff ,I say. "I have no Idea" It just seems to always snowball into me giving it away for free. I had to learn the hard way to not let this happen.

The best way for me is to have this all worked out in the beginning. A lot of the time, a band coming in will really have a lot of great ideas about shaping the record. In this case,I have no problem giving credit where it is due. Also, some Engineers have great ideas and can be the reason an album comes together.

I'm just saying, be careful.

[J.J. Blair]

This has been a bone of contention for me in the past.  Here's what I say to those kind of guys:
I'm the one whose job makes him responsible for producing the final master or product.  That makes me the producer.   You are in the band.  A big part of your job is to arrange the songs for your band to play.  That makes you either a band member or the arranger, not a producer.  

Unless a member of the band somehow has assumed some of the responsibility to be in the control room for every second of tracking, and has contributed to decisions and actions which affect or facilitate a finished product, he can kiss my ass with his wannabe co-producer aspirations.  This is not the first time I've heard of band members thinking that arranging makes them a producer.  You tell him that you'll list him or the whole band as arrangers, and explaiin to him that unless you are willing to relinquish part of the responsibilty of guaranteeing a product, contracting the session players, booking the studio time, making decisions about how to record the music, knowing how to achieve the sounds that they explain in the most esoteric terms, etc. (and more importantly, that he is actually able to do these things), that he has a misunderstanding of what a producer does.  

[Fibes]

Shit, i got into this biz by being the dumbass guitarist who could arrange, produce and started engineering to stay awake. So many projects the "producer" dropped the ball, disappeared, couldn't relate, ran off with the engineers wife and before i knew it, the scenario was just me (the session git dude) and the band/artist. Pretty soon i was a producer, why? Because so many producers are not even close to getting the shoes on, never mind filling them.

I fucking hate producers, self loathing included...

BTW i produced my bands upcoming record and the shits gave me such a hard time i want to hire the most painful, tell it like it is producer for the next one. The pay won't be very good, unless you can derive dinero from sadism and bashing the brains in of clueless unappreciative fucks. I kid, maybe...

So many folks want the title but none are willing to beat the meat, chase the chicken and, uh...  Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[J.J. Blair]

I just realized who the producer actually is: It's the guy who is willing to not sleep to make sure that the thing gets done on time and doesn't sound like shit.  It's not the guy who says "Make me sound good.  I'll see you guys tomorrow."  When I think of the hours of sleep I've lost making sure that some talentless hack gets a good vocal comp that doesn't embarrass me...

If any of you film buffs know who Alan Smithee is, it's too bad that you can't get him to take credit for some productions.  The DGA has it made, letting that guy direct pieces of shit, while the real director still gets to collect his back end.

[hargerst]

A "co-producer" is the person that gets his name put on the album after it has left the studio,

OR (if it's an independent artist),

the artist's name will be added in that spot just before it goes to the printers.

[darling]

 It seems simple....
The producer is the person asked, or hired to PRODUCE the recording. Was this drummer asked, or hired to produce the recording ?
 case closed -happy holidays - dave darling

[Level]

LOL, all of you made my day here!

Kudos!

[Fletcher]

Fibes?  When is the producer from the current project going to send up those files to be mixed?  The week between X-mas and New Year is like perfect for us.

I'll be more than happy to do your next project for chump change... but plan on bringing like 50-60 songs into the first couple of sit downs as I am a picky bastard!!  [self loathing as well but the alcohol works OK to cover that   ]

JJ, with all due respect, yes, I have taken more than a few credits by the name of Alan Smithee... but I have an issue with the "being in the control room every minute things are being tracked" statement... I would normally rather rip out my teeth than sit through shit like backing vocals [I may write the parts, but I really hate listening to them being recorded]... and shit like lead vocals... most of the time I'll get the sound, tell the singer/engineer (or assistant) what I want recorded... leave them to record it, come back later and either "comp" it, or criticize it (redo some sections), or both... but I'm really not wild about sitting there and watching them go down [hate it actually].

If I'm really tight with the keyboard/guitar players I'll give them a sketch of what I want then come back to see how they've done... again, we'll fix anything that is amiss later on.

I hate the 'mirco managment' production style as much as I hate the 'paper work shuffler' production style. "Hands on oversight" is more my style... give 'em enough rope, but don't let the trap door swing open is kinda the way I like to work.

As for credit... more often than not it's because I work this way that credit is fine... like I said, I don't like to 'micromanage' a project... so if one [or all of them] takes on the 'micromanagement' stuff... Mazel Tov... have a credit.

If the drummer thinks he should have a credit for an arrangement idea he can blow me... but if they're actually part of the overall process, the why not.

By the same token... I really hate it when band's don't want to give me "songwriting" on stuff where I've like written the chorus the bridge and one of 3 verses [or similar].  I had one band that recorded a song I wrote about my the ex-partner in a production company I used to have... the singer changed two lines in the chorus and expected a "co-write" credit!!  [turns out he fucked me good and took all the songwriting credit on the song... damn good thing it didn't sell worth a shit or I'd have been VERY pissed off!!]