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Author Topic: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3 (DC - rock)  (Read 10102 times)

bblackwood

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L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3 (DC - rock)
« on: December 19, 2004, 07:25:37 AM »

Time for test #3! Here are the links to download the two files (Limit1 and Limit2 this time, no unlimited version). Download them and give them a listen, then come back and vote in the poll to tell us which one you think sounds 'better'. After a week or so (maybe more, maybe less), we'll release the answer of which is which...

links removed

Special thanks to Dave Collins for putting this one together...

[Warning - do not read further until you have listened - no reason to have someone else influnce your listening...]




































Discuss...
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Brad Blackwood
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bblackwood

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2004, 07:26:53 AM »

No one can see what you vote for, so tell us what you think...

Also, feel free to post your thoughts about what you are hearing...
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Brad Blackwood
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ammitsboel

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2004, 09:49:31 AM »

I don't hear any important changes between those to files either.
I will take a listen again later today.

The Balance is good but it sounds EQ'ed. And the dynamics are floating.
It also sounds a little "closed in", in the same manner as Bobs files.
But his master lives so much more up to the song than the J and K files.

Best Regards,
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bblackwood

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2004, 11:49:41 AM »

Hmm, Limit1 sounds much more open and just 'there', while limit2 sounds kinda chesty, closed in. Loss of detail in Limit2. And frankly, while a couple dB hotter than I generally cut, this is the first example of modern day levels we've had yet in the limiter tests...
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Brad Blackwood
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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2004, 12:04:43 PM »

For me, #2 works a shade better at high volumes than #1 but I really feel these are too close to call. I doubt seriously a band would know if they were switched, I will certainly say we are cutting a fine line here in differences.

At lower levels #1 seems to have a shade more breathing room between sounds.

Too close to call. Overall I will pick #1 I really don't know "why"

I am going to do this later. My "morning ears" are not really ready yet.
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krid

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2004, 12:06:23 PM »

I am totally agree with you Brad, I prefer limit1 it sounds way better IMO.
Everything breathes better, it's more balanced, more open than limit2.

It's a loud mastering but it sounds really good : great job Dave Collins !
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ammitsboel

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2004, 12:43:23 PM »

I guess my ears feel more like sleeping than anything else today! Confused
I took another listen and found out that 1 sounds more edgy than 2 witch i think is a good thing for this song.

Maybe nr.1 is clipping? or maybe the limiter is distorting a little?
maybe this introduces the feeling of a wider image? because generally I don't hear a wider image in nr.1, I just hear some edgy artifacts in the highs.
2 sounds almost a little dull in the top range when comparing to 1.

But my first comment that I heard earlier I will stand by: Both versions sound "closed in".

Best Regards,
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2004, 12:57:14 PM »

Limit1 has more definition to my ears. Limit1 sounds more like a rekkid.  It also reads up to .5dB hotter in RMS than limit2 at various points.   Are both of these pure limiting, or is there some good old honest clipping going on as well?  After listening and making my choice I checked out the null - woohah, now that's an interesting record.
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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2004, 01:29:37 PM »

There be clipping in the file!
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pg666

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2004, 01:37:21 PM »

i've listened to all three of these tests and this was the first one i could actually hear the difference consistently.

i thought limiter 1 was making the cymbals sound particularly trashy, especially in that middle part with the hi-hat counts. they seemed more distorted and wider/smearier.

i prefered the darker, less obtrusive limiter 2. i thought it made the guitars seem 'heavier' too.

is this Fu Manchu?
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GoobAudio

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2004, 02:02:08 PM »

Listening in the Accuton/focal 3 way speakers and the HD-600 phones in synchronicity it was again very difficult to tell one from the other. In general Limiter 1 was a tad on the brighter side.

At 7 seconds I thought I heard Limiter 1 clamping the tail of the cymbal a bit more than limiter 2 was but I also was getting the feeling that Limiter 1 was a bit louder than limiter 2. In one dB steps I lowered limiter 1 output to -.2dB and I was no longer able to hear this artifact reliably.

Overall with Limiter 1 adjusted -.2dB I prefer limiter 2 because it had a little tiney bitsy more defined bass, and a tinsey einsey more transparent high end.

In reality, unless someone told me there was a difference between this CD in my left hand and that CD in my right hand there is in way in heaven or earth I would come to the conclusion on my own that one is mastered differently from the other.

But Bob, that is a nice job. I compared it with 311's 311 album and you are right in there with that one. I would sure like to know how to do such a nice clean job on that kind of stuff. I think I will be tagging on to your court for awhile.

Just wondering why we all of a sudden changed from 24 bit files to 16 bit files?

Goober
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bobkatz

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2004, 02:06:25 PM »

Nice job, DC! At my "normal" listening loudness this material sounds a bit "thick" to my ears as I'm not used to turning this up. But as soon as I turn it up to "stun" it sounds like it's supposed to. I'm not exactly sure what this means, except that I know I have to learn how to make this mental adjustment because I could not (or would not choose to) master at that loudness for any period of time.

I would really like to hear the raw mix on this one, if DC were generous to oblige. It sounds like a first-rate mix, certainly better than I had to work with in the sample that I put up. The vocals have excellent fullness. DC definitely has his Black Sabbath ears on.

Another observation: The guitar buzz immediately clamps down as soon as the cymbal hits. Was this in the mix or did it happen in the mastering?

I choose limiter 2. Limiter 2 has slightly more depth while Limiter 1 is as flat as a pancake. My guess is Limiter 2 is the TC set to "Loud". Also, limiter 2 sounds a hair brighter than 1, but I do not think this is limiter distortion in this case.

Let the games continue!

BK
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2004, 02:31:04 PM »

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 19:06



I choose limiter 2. Limiter 2 has slightly more depth while Limiter 1 is as flat as a pancake.
BK


This is an interesting observation and it relates to the Afro-cuban  XY test as well.  It points to differing values of what "good" is.  In the XY pair, what turned out to have better depth and imaging was the MD4, while the L2 was more creamy and homogeneous, if not a little flat in the 3D sense.  People coming from the audiophile camp tend to favor imaging and those from the pop field tend to favor the smooth up front ear-candy sound.  The listening environment has to be extraordinarily well designed for the imaging and depth aspects of a track to become really apparent and I think this is one reason why the dimensional aspect of a master is not more important to many listeners.  Brought to you by the Committee For Sweeping Generalizations.
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“A working class hero is something to be,
Keep you doped with religion and sex and T.V.”
John Lennon

"Large signals can actually be counterproductive.  If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”
Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer

bobkatz

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2004, 02:51:35 PM »

GoobAudio wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 14:02





But Bob, that is a nice job.
Goober


Oh no. I wish I could take credit for it. But it was not mine. Limiter test #3 is DCs'.

Brad, can you make a global correction to the headlines of these threads? It would be nice if you lablled test #1 "Latin-BK". Test #2 "Metal-BK". and Test #3 "Metal-DC".


BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

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electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

bobkatz

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Re: L2 vs. MD4 limiter test #3...
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2004, 03:00:59 PM »

AlanS wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 14:31



The listening environment has to be extraordinarily well designed for the imaging and depth aspects of a track to become really apparent and I think this is one reason why the dimensional aspect of a master is not more important to many listeners.  Brought to you by the Committee For Sweeping Generalizations.



And a very fair one at that! Good call, AS.

Can we have our cake and eat it, too? Should I install a giant pair of Genelecs in here to do rock? It is clear to me that the very differences in our monitoring systems and room acoustics are generating our reactions to these limiter differences. This room here is designed for a virtual RFZ and the speakers for minimal diffraction. If you want to hear depth, come here...

But depth IS important. If one limiter pancakes the depth, what does that say about what it is doing? If you like it "loud with edge" it seems that the L2 might be preferred. If you like it "more natural" (if that can be said about stun-level material), then the TC might be preferred. There is no clear winner.

We have to see when DC reveals the answers whether I correctly picked the TC, that is!
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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