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[mr.T]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I'm working as a producer/musican/songwriter in Norway and am currently shopping for a new two or four channel preamp. I already have a UA6176 which works fine for vocals with my M149, but I'm going to track drums in January and therefore need something special. I have tried to find some answers here on these pages, but find it hard to draw any conclusions based on what I've read. Seems just like Harmony Central where people review things they've allready bought and totally slander it once they're bored with it.
I want to buy some Neve-clones and this is the list I've ended up with:

Aurora GTQ2
Great River MP2 NV (mercanary ed.)
Phoenix Audio DRS2
Vintech 473
ORAM Octasonic (not a Neve-clone, but still......)
and possibly the Seventh Circle stuff.

Seems like you can't go wrong with the Great River gear (what happened with the MP4 by the way?), but still the Aurora preamp is made of a former Neve-engineer who should know what he's doing (?).
I'll have to buy one of these without testing them as this is pretty exotic stuff in my country. Could any of you give a good advice on which to pick based on your experience? As mentioned I'm going to use them for drums, but also other things. The Neves I've heard have a distinct character to me which just feels right and this is what I'm after. I'm after the SOUND, not the marketing strategy nor the exact historically correct blueprint of a 1073.
I guess this has been disgussed to death allready, but I would love to hear some realworld experience on this topic.

[chetatkinsdiet]

For drums, it's hard to beat an API or clone type pre.  For not a lot of money, you should be able to grab a little API, OSA or Brent Averill lunchbox and fill it up.  The OSA pres run $450-600 or so ea.  The lunchbox itself will run about $500.  
As for the Neve clones, I'm really happy with my Vintech Dual 72 pre for the kick and snare.  
later,
m

[Patrick Brannen]

The Vintech X81 absolutely KILLS!

[auralman]

Thomas Brekke wrote on Mon, 13 December 2004 11:58

The Neves I've heard have a distinct character to me which just feels right and this is what I'm after. I'm after the SOUND, not the marketing strategy nor the exact historically correct blueprint of a 1073.

They all do a good job of amplifying mics. But if you're not looking for the historically correct "blueprint" of a Neve, then I'm not sure what the question is. I've not heard the Aurora, but..
the Great River doesn't have as much distortion as I like coming from the Neve 'family'
the Phoenix is a modern clone. Spot on.
the Vintech does, indeed kill...
the Oram (now I'm lost, because you're right, Oram sounds nothing like Neve stuff?)
I really like the 7th Circle pres. They distort the same way as the 1081s I grew to love. I've never done a side by side comparison with a 1073, but I'm sure they're quite different. But are they good? Yes, quite.

As long as you're into more colored sounds, other options (not "Neve"ish but we're already quite a ways from that aren't we?

APIs are lovely on drums. The 3124 is a fine investment.

The John Hardy pres are lovely, as well. And you can buy direct from John, which is a pleasure due to his being a truly nice guy.

[mr.T]

   I understand John Oram isn't exactly top of the pops in this forum, but anyway I included the Octasonic as I've been offered a new one for 60% less than retail. Still if Oram products are half as bad as the sharp tongues around here claim, they must be worse than Behringer pres.

Yes, I want the Neve-sound, but from what I've read here there was a rather tedious (and long) argument whether Vintech pres are Neve-inspired or "the same as...". I don't think the sound of the units was discussed at all....
In other words I want the sound with color and punch, but with less noise and other "vintage" side-effects if I can. I'm not a purist in the sense that "oh, it's not the same plastic knobs" or "the LEDs don't come from the original supplier".
I guess I'm going for the Vintech 473 after all. It seems to have the most features: four channels, basic eq and great price. Thanks for the input.

[Fletcher]

Wow... this is fun to watch... my only question so far is if any of y'all know what a "Neve sound" is?  ...or what it is you like about the "Neve sound"... or what about the "Neve sound" intrigues you most?

There are several different modules that constitute the "Neve" family, so, are we talking "10 series" are we talking "33" series, "31" series?  ...or are we just digging the concept of something sounding "large" being the "Neve" sound... or is it a 'distortion' that we think makes things bigger that we are intrerpreting as the "Neve sound"

I don't mean to break balls [OK, I probably do]... and I am really trying to encourage a freedom of expression here, but not a perpetuation of bullshit myth.

[thestudio]

Why don't we use the word "FAT" because all the companies who sell re-designs of Neve circuits use it in their advertisements to sell more units.

[zmix]

Fletcher wrote on Mon, 13 December 2004 20:31

Wow... this is fun to watch... my only question so far is if any of y'all know what a "Neve sound" is?  ...or what it is you like about the "Neve sound"... or what about the "Neve sound" intrigues you most? There are several different modules that constitute the "Neve" family, so, are we talking "10 series" are we talking "33" series, "31" series?  ...or are we just digging the concept of something sounding "large" being the "Neve" sound... or is it a 'distortion' that we think makes things bigger that we are intrerpreting as the "Neve sound" I don't mean to break balls [OK, I probably do]... and I am really trying to encourage a freedom of expression here, but not a perpetuation of bullshit myth.

Right on Mr F. ! Right F-in on!

We are trapped by the utterence of magic words...

If anyone has any meaningful experience with Neve modules, they will discover that there are quite a number of differences within a single number series. Not to mention the differences between the different series'. Do the 'clones' go for any particular artifact? What do you want from the module?

What if the 283 card's bias trimmer is adjusted incorrectly?    I might like the asymetrical clipping of a 1064, 66 or 73 on a kick or snare, but this might be terrible on a vocal. Who makes what out there? I know Dan Kennedy. He's a great designer and really knows more about design and system integration than most 'outboard' gear manufacturers. I spent a day at his lab listening to output transformers and it was any eye opener to hear the 'measures' good versus the 'sounds' good.

Is anyone who isn't on the cutting edge of record production going to accept the fringe application of technology as marketable? "Neve" connotes both 'solid' and 'edgy' for the average novice, and the cloners are playing both sides of that.

What does that get us? MOR....

[mr.T]

  Ok, I think we're drifting slightly off the point. The preamps I've asked about are mainly 1073-clones. So let me rephrase what I'm looking for: I want the "NEVE 1073 SOUND". Sorry about the great confusion and frustration this generalization has provoked...........

I live in a country where I'm not able to try out these units. I like 1073s and would like a unit that replicates the SOUND of a good 1073. Therefore I turn to this forum where a lot of people have hands on experience with the preamps in question. Ok, now we have established what I'm after and why I ask the questions. Again....

[zmix]

Thomas,

Sorry about the topic drift...

What particular characteristic is it that you seek?

It might by good to quantify your preference, since each of these clones differ slightly from a typical 1073.

AMS-Neve is making a clone which has the same PC boards as the original, and nobody else has anything that 'authentic'...

[mr.T]

Ok, I would like a 1073 that does drums, vocals and bass really well. I don't want it to airy and hifi and it need to have substance in the lows. My feeling is that a lot of class A circuits have a lot of punch and a cool, often subtle compression in certain areas of the spectrum. This "compression" or "fatness" is something I associate with the Neves I've heard. Seems like the Vintech 473 could be the one for me. Almost everyone says they're great (except some dealers who don't sell them.......).
From what I've read so far it seems like Great Rivers NVs are good, but a bit clean and Phoenix DRS is a bit airy, bright and uncolored. But well, it could be that the difference between these pre's is quite small, but give me a hint if I'm doing something foolish..............

The best price I've been offered on the 473 and power supply, is $2800. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Better deal, anyone......?
 

[Fletcher]

Thomas Brekke wrote on Tue, 14 December 2004 05:30

My feeling is that a lot of class A circuits have a lot of punch and a cool, often subtle compression in certain areas of the spectrum. This "compression" or "fatness" is something I associate with the Neves I've heard.

Sure.  There are a bunch of units that accomplish that sort of "fatness" [it's not really a compression, it's more of a whole bunch of even order harmonic distortion coupled with a mediocre slew rate], that "fatness" comes mostly as a byproduct of the transformer design employed in the circuit.

Quote:

Seems like the Vintech 473 could be the one for me. Almost everyone says they're great (except some dealers who don't sell them.......).

Oh shit... (kicks dirt, stares at the ground), like I haven't heard that accusation a bazillion times.  Look ace, M-A has had the opportunity to carry Vintech for years, M-A doesn't carry Vintech because of a consious decision that was based on experience... you want to draw a different conclusion, knock yourself out, the fact of the matter is that nobody in our joint was wild about them, so we don't carry them.  

Ya know what, we could carry Pro-Tools too if we wanted to... guess what, we don't wanna.

Now, with that said the Vintech 473 could be great for your applications, could be the greatest thing you've touched since you discovered what your pecker is for... but there ain't nobody on any forum anywhere that will be able to come up with the answer for you... except you of course.

If you're looking for validation of a purchase decision, fine... but the fact of the matter is that if you're looking for a 1073 get a 1073, AMS-Neve makes them [M-A doesn't sell those either, but we highly recommend them... go figure], if you want to buy a unit based on the 1073 design, then the Vintech may indeed be right for you... but it's NOT A 1073.  I would hope that people will make their decisions from actual listening instead of from hype/bullshit marketing.

Quote:

From what I've read so far it seems like Great Rivers NVs are good, but a bit clean and Phoenix DRS is a bit airy, bright and uncolored. But well, it could be that the difference between these pre's is quite small, but give me a hint if I'm doing something foolish..............

The only thing I can see that you're doing that's foolish is trying to make a purchasing decision based on something other than your own experience with the product.  The Great River and the Phoenix sound like the Great River and the Phoenix.  Neither was intended to sound like a 1073.

The Great River started with the 1073 drawing, and that's where the similarities end.  The component selection is different, the transformers are very different, the features, the functions... all different.  

The Phoenix is even more different.  Phoenix Audio started by making Class A replacement op-amps for the class A/B "BA-440" op-amps in 8078 and 8068 style consoles [particularly for the 3415 line amplifier module].  This op-amp was designed by David Rees [who used to work for the old "Rupert Neve Company"... he's actually the guy that designed the 2254 compressor/limiter], it was made as a replacement part to "fatten up" the sound from 8068's and 8078's... it just turned out that it made a cool mic pre so they started to sell it as a stand alone pre.  

Seeing that Phoenix was originally in the business of refurbishing old Neve desks they had a ton of the red "Marconi" knobs and the little gray 'Neve Knobs' so they threw them onto the units... it was more about being too lazy or too cheap to do research into finding new knobs, it was NEVER about trying to be a "Neve clone" by any stretch of the imagination.

Now... with all that said... there are some other things you might owe it to yourself to look into... like the Helios stuff.  That is also a different sound than a "Neve" sound, but it's usually no less "fat" [or is it "phat"?] sounding, but again, they're different [and M-A doesn't pimp them so there is zero financial motivation in that recommendation]... there is the Chandler stuff, and as you've also mentioned, there is the Aurora stuff [Geoff used to be a draftsman for the old "Rupert Neve Company"... used to do stuff with Phoenix Audio too back when they refurbished old Neve desks before starting his own thing]... and the 7th Circle kit [which I haven't heard, but have been told by a few friends that it's really fun to fuck around with swapping different transformers in and out of the circuit to create different tones and textures].

Quote:

The best price I've been offered on the 473 and power supply, is $2800. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Better deal, anyone......?

There I can be of no assistance... but if you're into putting in the energy you can call around to all the dealers and pit one against the other unitl they're ready to pay you to take the damn thing.

BTW, what country are you in?

[Turbo]

I don't know about Neve, but once you try any of the Chandler gear your UA will be collecting dust. My favourite is the LTD-1.

Nick

[mr.T]

It obviously pays off throwing subtle remarks in your direction, Fletch   As an answer to your question; I'm from Norway.
I appreciate all the useful info and insight which I find unbiased and honest. This is the stuff I'm after.
Remember the subtitle for this forum "I dunno.....whadda think". My point exactly......

[Meriphew]

Fletcher wrote on Tue, 14 December 2004 03:36

Now... with all that said... there are some other things you might owe it to yourself to look into... like the Helios stuff.  That is also a different sound than a "Neve" sound, but it's usually no less "fat" [or is it "phat"?] sounding, but again, they're different

Fletcher - Have you tried the new Helios Type 69 pre/eq? If so, did you feel it was up to par (sonically and build wise) with API, Great River, and Chandler?

[lucey]

Thomas Brekke wrote on Tue, 14 December 2004 05:30

Ok, I would like a 1073 that does drums, vocals and bass really well. I don't want it to airy and hifi and it need to have substance in the lows. The best price I've been offered on the 473 and power supply, is $2800. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Better deal, anyone......?

Thomas I have the following:

Vin 473
Chandler Tg2
Aurora GTQ2
Api 512b
Altec 1567A
and
Martech mss10


and IMNTLBHO the Aurora is what you want.

The 473 is bright and tight by comparison, and does not have the ass kicking low end or overall beauty of the GTQ2.

The 473 eq is no big deal, the GTQ eq is very cool ...  

and the others on your list are just about as you say.



I use the GTQ2 for drums, overheads, vocals, violins, acoustics voices etc. and someone I know with many actual 1073s agrees that it's the best out there. Yes it has more top and less grit then a vintage 73 but it's got the low end as close as you'll find and it sounds great.

the TG2 is birghter in the high mids and top, and thinner, the 473 is brighterr and tighter on the bottom and lacks the color on the bottom, Phoenix is tame by comparison, NV is similarly off kilter for this sound, Oram is gear to be avoided (sizzly surface mount artifacts), Seventh Circle stuff might be cool(havenot heard it), and the Vintech 1272 is cool as well but darker.

You might like the Vintech 1272?  Or the GTQ2.

[Finstad]

Hall

[Patheticus]

Just to throw in my $.02, I've never had the chance to use any original neve gear so I can't compare, but the x81 sounded like a fat sloppy horses ass to me. I had a pair of them set up to use on kick and snare on a project this summer cause I'd heard about how great they're "excellent" "fat" tone. And all I got was boomy lowend that I had to EQ the shit out of to make it sound somewhat normal. Eventually I just pulled them off and put my Chandler TG-2 on kick and snare. All I had to do was plug them in and push the gain a bit and they sounded like gold. Tired the x81 on overheads too and it just wasn't punchy enough to keep up with the drummer I was recording. Had the same problem with the Vintech 1272.

I've owned the UA2108, Brent Averill API 312's, the API3124, the Chandler TG2, and an FMR RNP. The Brent Averills were definelty my favorite for drums, although they had original 2520 OpAmps in them and not the Advedis. The 3124 rocks too. The api's have such a tight low end it's beautiful. And if you want something a little bigger and a little less focused sounding the TG2 rocks. It really makes toms sound like connons. As for the 2108, it was muddy as hell and really cheap sounding to me. I would take an RNP and an extra $600 any day over the 2108.

[184c]

Quote:

Oh shit... (kicks dirt, stares at the ground), like I haven't heard that accusation a bazillion times. Look ace, M-A has had the opportunity to carry Vintech for years, M-A doesn't carry Vintech because of a consious decision that was based on experience... you want to draw a different conclusion, knock yourself out, the fact of the matter is that nobody in our joint was wild about them, so we don't carry them.

While it is true that you declined becoming a dealer for us about five years ago when we were only making the 1272 based preamps,which was also around the time the MP-2NV was being developed, the only "opportunity" you've had regarding our later products in recent years has been your "opportunity" to attend blind listening tests of our X73 and X73i vs. real vintage Neve 1073's.

These blind listening test "opportunities" were offered to you on several occasions, only after you consistently bashed the X73 and later admitted that you had never given it a proper evaluation. We in no way meant these public offers for you to pick our X73 and or X73i out of a lineup of vintage 1073's, which you have always found reasons not to attend, as being an offer for you to become a dealer for us.

Thanks,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[mr.T]

Oh, it didn't want to start this again.......

[Fletcher]

184c wrote on Fri, 17 December 2004 22:57

These blind listening test "opportunities" were offered to you on several occasions, only after you consistently bashed the X73 and later admitted that you had never given it a proper evaluation. We in no way meant these public offers for you to pick our X73 and or X73i out of a lineup of vintage 1073's, which you have always found reasons not to attend, as being an offer for you to become a dealer for us.

Dallas, this being the holiday season that's your one free gift... the gift of trying to start some shit to advertise your product.  Any further communication on this will either be done privately, or not at all.

To recap for the procedurally impaired... if you want the nice people of our shop to listen to your stuff, send it up.  No, we didn't get to give it what I felt was a proper evaluation.  A proper evaluation takes a month, sometimes longer [in the case of the truly great shit, less than a month, in the case of stuff on the border more than a month, in the case of the mediocre to piss poor... a bit under a month as we try to find some kind of redeeming quality in it somewhere].

SPL just sent in a Mastering EQ in a big, heavy wooden crate.  Mackie just sent in their latest and greatest pre-amp for us to mess with, there are 3 or 4 mics in the batting order, etc.

I'm going to say this one last fucking time.

I don't listen to anything out of context to make a decision on it.

Period.

Noth-ing.

You sent up a unit to a session I was doing in Atlanta... it was listened to, albeit briefly, in context, decisions were made as to the context of that session and we moved on.

So, if you want me to hear your shit, send it the fuck up so we can put it through it's paces.  I don't know why you're afraid to send us up stuff to listen to?  

If you're unwilling to do follow our evaluation procedure, then shut the fuck up.

Any/every other manufacturer who wants us to check out their shit does that, you my friend are not special.  Your product will go through the same procedure, same scrutiny every other piece of gear goes through... or you don't get to say "we invited you to our party", because I don't go to other people's parties.  They're welcome to come to mine, but I don't go to theirs.

The stuff will get a fair shake... we've been surprised before.  Benchmark surprised us... we never thought in a million years we'd like the shit but guess what, we do.  More recently Apogee surprised the hell out of me.  15-16 months ago I was fighting like a dog to get that crap off our roster... then low and behold they came out with some product I could stand.  The Toft ATC-2 was a serious shocker.  I didn't think that thing had a prayer in hell of being added to the roster... but looky, lookie... it made the team!!

The Horch mic... first time they sent it in I thought they were joking it was so fucking terrible.  Turns out it was broken. The second one they sent over was pretty good... but not special enough to add to our roster.  The third one was a charm, and now it's been added to the roster.  

I know you're into all kinds of wonderful party tricks and shit like that, but the fact of the matter is that we do things our way or not at all.  As you're well aware that's the beauty of having your own company, you can make up your own rules, your own procedures.  If your rules and your procedures preclude you from sending up stuff for us to give a try, then it precludes you from sending up stuff for us to give a try... but understand that the last experience we had with something is the experience we'll go by.

Last time I tried your stuff it wasn't "a Neev"... it was "eh".  I'm sure it's a fine $3-400/channel pre-amp or what ever the hell people charge for it, but as far as I was concerned, it wasn't a fucking Neev, nor was it any special... it was OK, not the best tool for the task at hand, we moved on... if it had gone through 15 or 20 sessions like that then perhaps I might have drawn a different conclusion... but it didn't, so I didn't.

Want to change my mind?

Send up some stuff for us to try that blows my mind.

If you don't think I'll say what I really think of it, then you insult me to no end.  If you do think I'll say what I really think of the stuff, and feel like it's good enough to pass our little evaluations... send it in.

Is there a part of "send it in" you're having a hard time understanding?

BTW, don't bother responding with words.  I will remove any/all response posts to this thread.  I will not debate this.  Been there, done that, you got your free advertising out of it, that's the end.  

If you want to respond with action, I promise you we'll give it a fair shake.  If you'd like to join it for the evaluation process... I'll give you the number for the local "Extended Stay America" motel... book a month there and feel free to be present whenever we're using the thing.

This is the L-A-S-T time I'm going to say this... the ball is in your court... do what you will, but the initial decision is all yours.

Have a nice day.

[mr.T]

 

[Duardo]

Quote:

Mackie just sent in their latest and greatest pre-amp for us to mess with

]

I'd be interested in hearing your impressions of that one.

-Duardo

[football]

Dallas,

in the name of Sweet Baby Jesus I implore you at this most blessed time of year to pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease stop the insanity and send up some units for evaluation!

As a pro audio forum lurker I beg of you.  I have a project to finish before Christmas and just spent way too much time going through that old evaluation thread.

A friend of mine (tonight) sent me that old thread about trying to set up an evalution for Fletcher.  I got sucked in like I sometimes get sucked in to watching a horrible Steven Segal movie.  I read all 6 pages in one sitting (what is wrong with me?)!

At the end of the 6 pages the only thing I could think of was "holy shit, Mother of God just friggin send up some units to end the craziness".  What have you got to lose?

Fletcher I apologize if this thread is not supposed to go in this direction.  I realize you don't want Dallas to respond I just coudn't help myself in throwing another opinion out.  

Like I said I just read the old thread and popped on the site just afterwards to see what was new and lo and behold everything old is new again.

By the way I have done a pretty decent amount of tracks with Vintech pre's.  No doubt very good stuff, although I still don't feel it brings that voodoo mojo undescribable gobs of goodness fatter than Satan's sister's ass shit like a Neve does.  But what does anyway?  Maybe old Telefunken stuff?  Just my opinion.

Happy Holidays
Ps. Dallas, I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh.  I'm just being goofy, but really I think it would be great to just end it all and send the stuff up.

[Kev]

This gear vs gear and supplier vs manufacturer stuff only confuses the people reading this and other forums.

Yes there are vested interests here.

I believe the only way you guys can learn about these units is to audition them in context within your work flow.

I also believe that some investigation is warranted and feel that there is nothing wrong with flipping the lid to see what is inside.
Please do not use the technical info you glean to influence your decision outright and without the above audition as many of you will not understand the technical info when it is obtained in these very small quantities.
The Neve1073 gain section with the transformers and attenuation tricks is actually more subtle and complicated than the sum of it's parts.
(some of the other mic-pre favourites can be a little easier to understand and separate)

Read as much as you can, look , listen and learn ... then make your choice.

[Kubi]

Okay, all ye holier-than-thou "  you-got-to-listen-to-it-for-yourself-so-don't-you-ever-start  -or-reply-to-comparative-threads-cuz-they-offend-our-Golden- Ear-sensibilities "-elitists,

FUCKIN-DUH!!!!!!!!!!

Of course ultimately you got to listen to it for yourself, in your workflow   blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah  blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah blahblahblahblahblahblahblah-dee-fuckin-blah

I *still* find it very useful to hear from people who OWN (not who heard of) some of these pres how they compare to each other, what their very subjective experiences with the different pieces are, which ones they like for which reasons, etc.  It helps narrow down which ones we should try and/or buy (and possibly avoid a few returns.)  

If you don't find it useful to read other people's "testimonies", stay the fuck out of comparative threads, but leave the rest of us alone... I don't need politicians OR clerics OR audio geeks telling me what is or isn't good for me...  

Plus, I'm pretty sure neither Fletcher nor anyone else with a high-end audio retail business would like to see a 90% return ration cuz everyone starts following the advice from saintly audio-zealots that they absolutely must listen to every single fuckin' pre ever made in their own environment before they can make a decision.

So lay off, will ya!

Phew.

[Kev]

Kubi wrote on Thu, 23 December 2004 11:56

....  stay the fuck out of comparative threads, but leave the rest of us alone... I don't need politicians OR clerics OR audio geeks telling me what is or isn't good for me...   So lay off, will ya!

 
no

Group DIY was born from a Neve 1073 comparison thread just like this one.
I started Group DIY to help spread some knowledge to do just that ...
to help people understand things and make an informed choice
I think Fletcher may have said a few times
" It's not rocket science " ... or was it surgery ??
BUT likewise as Dan Kennedy has said
" the magic is in the detail "

take a long look at some of CJ's dissection threads


seeya,

Kev

[J.J. Blair]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Shep SN6 modules.  I own a pair and am very happy with them.  These are made by the old Neve employees who built the original 1073s and are based on their design.  I find the mic pre of these units to be exceptionally similar to my 1073s, however the EQ is a little cleaner, which may of may not be preferable to you.  I personally like the distortion of the 1073's EQ.  However, the SN6 gives you much greater fexibility than the 1073 and slightly better headroom.  While maybe not quite as 'magical' as the 1073 IMO, it absolutely has that Neve sound.

And, as Fletcher said, you can always just buy the new Neve modules.  I haven't heard them personally though, so if you check them out, let us know what you think.

[decibel]

Can someone exlain the connection between Aurora Audio and Phoenix Audio.  On the Aurora website, it also says Phoenix audio, but they seem to be two different companies.  The products look similar and even the logos look similar....what's the deal?

thanks,

Andy Dodd

[lucey]

decibel wrote on Thu, 23 December 2004 17:17

Can someone exlain the connection between Aurora Audio and Phoenix Audio.  On the Aurora website, it also says Phoenix audio, but they seem to be two different companies.  The products look similar and even the logos look similar....what's the deal? thanks, Andy Dodd

the companies were once in league and split up ...

Aurora is Geoff Tanner, former Neve designer and engineer. His pre is '1073-ish with more top' plus a nice little eq he made for two EMI desks once upon a time.

Phoenix has roots as a Neve repairs company among other things and their product is a transformerless unit, not a Neve or a Neve clone, it's totally new.  As totally new as the GR 2 NV yet more like the Flamingo.



As far as Vintech, they should take stuff up to M-A and take their chances.  

The Vintech 1272 is dark, their 473 is punchy and bright - great for drums.  Haven't heard the rest of the line, but I sense that they have the wrong transformer to be a 1073 clone in any official world - yet none exists!

All anyone can say for sure is that Chandler, Vintech, Wunder, Aurora etc. all sound different.

Neve reissues anyone?

[compasspnt]

I've seen no mention of the Daking stuff...not that it's necessarily a Neve clone.

Does anyone have experience/reports on Daking?  I've always wondered about it.

[zmix]

compasspnt wrote on Mon, 27 December 2004 13:41

I've seen no mention of the Daking stuff...not that it's necessarily a Neve clone. Does anyone have experience/reports on Daking?  I've always wondered about it.

The Dakings are Trident A-Range clones. Class A push-pull outputs. Not at all like a Neve Class A single ended design.

I have had a pair of their pres for many many years. I remember that I had expected them to be more like a Neve, and my first impressions have basically stuck:

Very clean
Lots of headroom
the EQ is very hi-fi, as in home stereo (baxandall)

Shortly after I got them, I cut a record on a Trident A-range. They were quite similar to the Trident, but all the switches and knobs worked perfectly...

Now, years later, I would add the following comments:

Nice when pushed a bit
Sweet top end.
Can add a certain midrange presence to a lead vocal, somewhat like an LA-3A does.

Apparently the guitar sound on Led Zepplin's "Black Dog" ("hey hey mama said the way you move", etc...) is the Trident Mic Pre, direct, overdriven,  then triple tracked.

[compasspnt]

Thanks, Chuck.  Very informative answer.  Sounds like a good thing to have around as another choice.

[Fletcher]

FWIW, while I like the Daking stuff quite a bit, I have found that I like the EQ a bit more than an original A-Range EQ, and the mic pre far less than an original A-Range module's pre.

The pre seems a bit less "deep" than the originals, while the EQ seems a bit clearer and better defined [which I generally find is a plus].

[zmix]

I'd like to add to Fletcher's comments on the Daking.

As I stated previously, I cut an album on a Trident A-Range shortly after I purchased the Daking modules. There were certainly differences in these devices, however, the Dakings were brand new and the caps were not all dried up. Geoff did his board design from the ground up, so the layout of the Daking is much more modern in terms of grounding, etc. The A-range has quite a bit more iron and less nickel in the output transformers, too. After much discussion, Geoff sent me a second pair of output transformers for my modules that were more like the Trident. These had quite a bit more 3rd harmonic in the low end than the production model. Pretty minor difference when using a single channel. The major difference in the daking module is that the mic transformer (a reichenbach RE-115k) has some issue with the termination... I don't recall exactly, and I don't think that Geoff ever sent me the schematics he promised..
In any case the input has a HF rise above 15khz which gives the device a bit more delicacy than the original Trident.

I know that there are several other manufacturers who have done an A-Range clone, I've seen them at the AES. Has anyone heard these? I recall that one of them had 'dust trap" slide pots for cut and boost, just like the original.

[zmix]

Doesn't look good.....

 http://www.audiobanter.com/q-t_13972-Toft-Trident-A-Rangeany one-got-em.html

[Kev]

ouch

looks like Alan H. had something to say

[J.J. Blair]

If that new line of A Ranges (which by all accounts I've ever heard was a piece of shit compared to the original) is redesigned Malcolm, that will be really cool.  Since MTA had been started, I don't recall him doing anything discrete.  I own one of the first MTA 980s they sold, and it's just such a great fucking console for making rock and roll.  

Rob Harvey rigged up 8 stereo pairs (16 total) of A Range modules for some guy here in LA, and they wound up on eBay last year.  Work was slow for me at the time, so I couldn't justify buying even more pres and EQs.  However, I was very, very close to talking myself into getting them.  Talk about sexy.  All those sliders in a row.

BTW, since I'm only familiar with the A Range from Cherokee, anybody care to comment on the B Range?  Purple Audio had been selling a bunch of pairs of those that they reracked last year.  Also, since nobody mentioned it as another pre/EQ option, somebody is making Quad Eight modules again.  Anybody care to comment on the reissues?

And Fletcher, how do the new 1073s sound compared to the old?  I don't know anybody with first hand experience.

[skygod]

mr.T wrote on Mon, 13 December 2004 06:58

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I'm working as a producer/musican/songwriter in Norway and am currently shopping for a new two or four channel preamp. I already have a UA6176 which works fine for vocals with my M149, but I'm going to track drums in January and therefore need something special. I have tried to find some answers here on these pages, but find it hard to draw any conclusions based on what I've read. Seems just like Harmony Central where people review things they've allready bought and totally slander it once they're bored with it. I want to buy some Neve-clones and this is the list I've ended up with: Aurora GTQ2 Great River MP2 NV (mercanary ed.) Phoenix Audio DRS2 Vintech 473 ORAM Octasonic (not a Neve-clone, but still......) and possibly the Seventh Circle stuff. Seems like you can't go wrong with the Great River gear (what happened with the MP4 by the way?), but still the Aurora preamp is made of a former Neve-engineer who should know what he's doing (?). I'll have to buy one of these without testing them as this is pretty exotic stuff in my country. Could any of you give a good advice on which to pick based on your experience? As mentioned I'm going to use them for drums, but also other things. The Neves I've heard have a distinct character to me which just feels right and this is what I'm after. I'm after the SOUND, not the marketing strategy nor the exact historically correct blueprint of a 1073. I guess this has been disgussed to death allready, but I would love to hear some realworld experience on this topic.

Tom and anybody else out there listening:

That

[J.J. Blair]

Skygod, why the anonymity?  If we don't know who you are and what you've done, we don't what to listen to you of yours and say, "Hey, I think the way this sounds.  I'll take his advice."

[Vertigo]

Why dredge up a post that's almost 2 years old? And why does this always seem to happen in Fletcher's forum? Trippy!

It was fun to re-read though. I've since built the SCA N72 (sounds fantastic) and gotten my hands inside of a lot of other pre's as well. What I find funny is that regardless of the design (push/pull, class A, opamp, etc), the transformers always seem to account for the bulk of a preamp's character. It's surprising how good even a $1.99 TL082 can sound when combined with great trannys.

-Lance

[ShakesTheClown]

Quote:

If you need your ego to be complete by posting your audio gear on the Internet, then you�re cracked to start with. Get a fukking life already!

Isn't that what you just did?

[ronin]

skygod wrote on Sun, 30 July 2006 12:22

... or flooding because you chose by your own free-will to live in a known flood zone in LA and FLA or on the Mississippi, or the annual tornado victims in the Midwest, guess what? You and yours are gonna die someday in a sinking crushing, collapsing suffocating, drowning, horrible death. So enjoy the sunshine, and peyote, and new age crystal chanting-stargazing-douche bagging ... because its all good, you're gonna be permanently gone soon ...

Wow, I poke my head in for some neve-a-like talk and I get my (inevitable, it seems) fate laid out before me. "sinking crushing, collapsing suffocating, drowning, horrible death".. bummer.

Maybe I should have my olfactory epithelium removed and move to the safety of the Garden State.

This thread was a fun read though!

[Frob]

im sorry i only got about 2 thirds of the way through that. when does the clif-notes version come out.

[Slipperman]

ronin wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 15:59

Wow, I poke my head in for some neve-a-like talk and I get my (inevitable, it seems) fate laid out before me. "sinking crushing, collapsing suffocating, drowning, horrible death".. bummer. Maybe I should have my olfactory epithelium removed and move to the safety of the Garden State. This thread was a fun read though!

I like skygod.

He's a little understated for Jersey, but he'll probably warm up if ya pummel him a little bit.

I'll bet my right testicle he's over 50 years of age. Maybe 60.

Grouchy old bastard. Reminds me of my mentor.

Anyhoo.

That's how it works here in the Garden State.

The weak are fleeced and beaten, killed and eaten.

No place like home.

SM.

[J.J. Blair]

Sometimes I can't decide if it's a good thing or a bad thing that I'm married to a Jersey girl.  But yeah, opinionated and loves to talk.  (Just like me, I suppose.)

[Frob]

Jersey Girl, sound like a bad movie title.

[mr.T]

Hellu, I started this thread and I might just as well finish it.  
I went with the API 3124+ and couldn't be happier. Loud, punchy and cool sounding on "everything". It works great with my Royers and the Soundeluxe E49. I've used this setup since March 2005 with very good results.