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Author Topic: Discrete mixing desks  (Read 21567 times)

Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2004, 04:46:30 AM »

Quote:

What about this thingee?
http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaudio/docs/products/vtc.shtm


If their "bigger" consoles are as their smaller 8/2 consoles (which I believe they say so), then it might all be dicrete or whatever, but this thing doesn't sound good. I tried one when I had a recording in Belgium. The Micamps sound hyped and lack detail and depth.

I'd look for 2nd hand studer gear. Even a 990 with 32 channals goes for $20,000 till $50,000. The more litte studer (960 I believe) offer 10 to 20 micinputs of the same quality in a transportable desk.

Daniel Dettwiler
www.ideeundklang.com
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JGreenslade

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2004, 06:36:23 AM »

The TLA VTC is definitely not discrete, it has ics all over the place. If it was all-valve with no ics I would expect the price to be considerably higher.

For the price range Ryan cites I would suggest checking a Neotek III - it ain't discrete but offers a convincing sound which isn't harsh. There are still discrete desks you can look at, but IMHO you will need to really know your tech theory to take on a pure transistor console in that price range.

Justin
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Peter Weihe

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2004, 07:23:53 AM »

Brian Roth wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 08:42

Ryan, I have NO idea if the Vintec tube desk is a hoax, vapor-ware, or whatever.  Perhaps a reader of this forum lives in Germany and can investigate.

If a hoax, they sure went to a lot of trouble!


Hi Brian,
that thing is alive.
The company is based in middle Germany in Hennef. The founder is the producer Helmut R
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Peter Weihe

bobkatz

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2004, 11:57:16 AM »

Eric Bridenbaker wrote on Sun, 05 December 2004 15:59


Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite" that looks pretty great. As of Jan 1, they will be phasing the mixing suite out of production.

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/mixingsuite.shtml

Cheers,
Eric



Now that would be tragic. I've used the Millennia Mixing suite and it's a fabulous, well-designed mixing console. I know one studio in Connecticut that designed an entire studio around it, customized it by adding GML automated faders and all!
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FredForssell

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2004, 12:33:34 PM »

Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite"

The Millennia Media mixing suite uses a 99.99% IC opamp signal path.  It is not a discrete design.

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Fred Forssell

bobkatz

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2004, 12:44:09 PM »

FredForssell wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 12:33

Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite"

The Millennia Media mixing suite uses a 99.99% IC opamp signal path.  It is not a discrete design.





Yes, I know this, but it sounds very nice nevertheless (I wouldn't kick it out of bed). There are levels and levels and levels of performance and sound, and I know that something even better than the Mil Med mixing suite exists. But still, it must be recognized that the Millennia Media box has been designed with a very "purist" approach and sounds that way.

"The last 10% of the job takes 90% of the time", as we all know. Clearly, to  take a mixing console beyond where Millennia has taken their mixing suite would take another 90% more. And every little detail that George has outlined would have to be right, whether or not it uses discrete components.

I wonder if a switching mastering power suppy would do if the local regulation is linear?

BK
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Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2004, 01:33:28 PM »

FredForssell wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 12:33

Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite"

The Millennia Media mixing suite uses a 99.99% IC opamp signal path.  It is not a discrete design.




Wasn't aware of this, sure it sounds quite reasonable anyway.
The Millenia unit is compatible with GML mod 9100, but must have different signal path topology..

Recently I've been exploring the possibility of a specialized portable unit for doing front of house sound at concerts.

Something with minimal functionality and maximum integrity:

Twelve to sixteen channels, two to four aux sends and variable highpass. Ideally the unit is rackmountable and road worthy, while delivering a premium analog path.

The plan is to patch the single bus output through a good graphic and then into the mains, bypassing the Soundcraft, Yamaha or Midas that is usually present.

In addition to vastly improved sound, the hope is to minimize some of the hassle taken to bypass the strip eq's, gate and comp inserts, bus groupings and vca assignments that are standard fare, and almost invariably hooked up by the techs in advance...

Any suggestions on where to go with this? (the 9100 might be the perfect item  if the channels could be fitted with variable highpass filters.)

Cheers,
Eric

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John La Grou

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2004, 08:20:41 PM »

FredForssell wrote on Mon, 06 December 2004 09:33

Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite"

The Millennia Media mixing suite uses a 99.99% IC opamp signal path.  It is not a discrete design.




The Mixing Suite employs discrete amplifiers in both the front-end and summing stages. Carefully selected monolithics are used elsewhere. Depending on how one configures a Mixing Suite, the main audio path will be comprised of anywhere from 25% discrete to about 8% discrete amplifiers. The claim of "99.9% IC opamp signal path" reveals a serious lack of credibility for someone who should know better.

The Mixing Suite carries the highest overhead of any product manufactured by Millennia and, sadly, I can’t justify keeping it in active production. We will continue to produce SIM, MIM, and PIM input modules, and SMM balanced discrete summing modules for existing customers. These modules will also plug into George’s HRT-9100 mixing platform. As of 1/1/05, we will stop making the UEE modular chassis and MPS power supply.

We still have a few Suites in stock, and I’m sure we’ll be taking a few custom mixer orders now and then based on available Mixing Suite modules. I’ve been working on a new remote recording mixer design for some time, but it’s probably a good 2 to 3 years before that’s ready for production.

Thanks for letting me clarify all this.
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FredForssell

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2004, 10:06:50 AM »

John La Grou said...

The Mixing Suite employs discrete amplifiers in both the front-end and summing stages. Carefully selected monolithics are used elsewhere.

To which I say...  John, I do not think that adding a pair of transistors (diff-amp) in front of a IC opamp (you like to call them monolithics) makes an amplifier a discrete amplifer.  I say it should be called a hybrid ampllifier. You use this for your summing amp and for the front-end of only ONE of the several different input modules (the one with the mic preamp). The rest of the modules do not use this hybrid amplifier (which you call a discrete amplifer) for their front ends they use IC opamps.

John also said...
The claim of "99.9% IC opamp signal path" reveals a serious lack of credibility for someone who should know better.

To which I say... nothing.


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Fred Forssell

John La Grou

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2004, 12:06:01 PM »

FredForssell wrote on Tue, 07 December 2004 07:06

John La Grou said...
The Mixing Suite employs discrete amplifiers in both the front-end and summing stages. Carefully selected monolithics are used elsewhere.

Fred Replied...
I do not think that adding a pair of transistors (diff-amp) in front of a IC opamp (you like to call them monolithics) makes an amplifier a discrete amplifer.



Call the Mixing Suite a "hybrid" if you wish. I'm fine with that. My request is that you stop misleading others by claiming that the Suite has a "99.99% IC opamp signal path." Pure nonsense.  

“Discrete amplifiers” can be built using a single transistor. That doesn't make it any less of an "amplifier." The Suite's front-end and summing stages each employ four-transistor differential amplifiers, not (as you say) "a pair."
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John La Grou,
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George Massenburg

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2004, 02:28:31 PM »

Look, guys, the way I see it is that you can currently get an IC whose performance is very, very close in "discrete transistor" amplifier topologies.  

The advantages that we still see in discrete op-amps are higher headroom and lower noise.  The noise of modern commercial IC's is getting lower.  The headroom is not getting higher; there's simply no call for it.

Oh, one more thing.  The other benefit of our discrete design is unavailable in IC's as well as most other discrete designs.  Ours is a three-stage topology where the input stage and the output stage are designed such that their poles are at extremely high frequencies, the significant pole (controlled by simple "pole-split compensation") over most of the operating range is the middle stage, which is also the main voltage gain stage.

Here's an interesting test.  While listening to the output of our 8200, unplug the power.  You'll notice that as the power dies that the noise comes up as the signal goes away but there're no loud "whistles" or "pops" or "clicks" as one IC op-amp or another goes unstable.

Not advertising, just stating the facts.

George
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FredForssell

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2004, 02:41:28 PM »

John wrote...
Call the Mixing Suite a "hybrid" if you wish. I'm fine with that. My request is that you stop misleading others by claiming that the Suite has a "99.99% IC opamp signal path." Pure nonsense.

I wouldn't ever call the mixing suite a hybrid.  I do call the amplifer that you call a "discrete amplifer" (ie, the summing amp and front-end of your mic preamp module but not the other two input modules) a hybrid design. I call the mixing suite an IC-based mixer because, imo, that is exactly what it is.

For example, the stereo input module connected to the main module has something like 9 IC opamps in series with its signal path.  It also has 1 transistor-based diff-amp. So ok, I guess that isn't exactly 99.99%; let me change it to an almost entirely IC opamp signal path.  To me, calling a IC opamp with an external transistor diff-amp a discrete amplifer is to use your term, "pure nonsense". You say tomato, I say... let's call the whole thing off.

The beginning post of this thread was one discussing designs that have a bunch of IC opamps vs those that do not.  Someone mentioned that the MM mixing suite was a discrete design. It is not, imo. That is all I wanted to point out.

Happy Holidays!
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Fred Forssell

RMoore

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2004, 02:46:44 PM »

<hat thing is alive.
The company is based in middle Germany in Hennef. The founder is the producer Helmut R
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People's Republic of Ryan

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RMoore

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2004, 02:51:38 PM »

Vintech - I love this hype on their site! Wink  :



''Do       you want to join the digital race, or would you prefer to watch from the       finish line, already owning the ultimate in equipment? The Vintec       C3 console is the first of its kind, utilizing only high-quality tubes in the entire audio       path.

Using       new technologies, the Vintec C3 achieves outstanding technical values.       This new concept creates a new reference. In the future, all other       producers of Mixing-Consoles have to reorientate. Thus, the Vintec C3       attains a timeless stability of value.''
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Peter Simonsen

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2004, 03:09:45 PM »

FredForssell wrote on Tue, 07 December 2004 19:41

To me, calling a IC opamp with an external transistor diff-amp a discrete amplifer is to use your term, "pure nonsense".
Happy Holidays!


and to do so imho would make even a Mackie a discrete mixer.. Shocked imo that would be pusching the "discrete design" quite far..what would a GML preamp be then..a "discrete-discrete" design ???

Kind regards

Peter
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