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Author Topic: Discrete mixing desks  (Read 21590 times)

RMoore

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Discrete mixing desks
« on: December 04, 2004, 09:19:12 PM »

As I pulled out a certain desk module tonight to spray 'CAIG' in the pan pot for the umpteenth time - I saw lots of ICs which made me think this: pretty much all of the gear in my studio I really like the sound of has no ICS,,the only exception to this rule is an MCI JH 110 tape deck which is IC-laden.
What mixing desks other than early Neves are IC-free..?
I guess more to the point is - what AFFORDAble desks ,that are IC free, exist today..
?
Thnx,
RM
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People's Republic of Ryan

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Brian Roth

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2004, 02:18:12 AM »

Wow...every desk I've seen in the past 20+ years used nothing but IC's except perhaps in a few "critical" locations, such as mic preamp input stage, mixing bus combiners and perhaps line output drivers.

Even then the discrete components were used in conjunction with opamps.

You said affordable, so the following is out of the question, but it IS an interesting answer to the question "what has 1539 vacuum tubes and 32 program buses":

http://www.vintec-audio.de/

Bri

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Peter Simonsen

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2004, 05:58:44 AM »

Ryan Moore wrote on Sun, 05 December 2004 02:19



I guess more to the point is - what AFFORDAble desks ,that are IC free, exist today..
?
Thnx,
RM


Please define "affordable"..!!!

Kind regards

Peter
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Peter Weihe

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2004, 06:04:59 AM »

Here are some ideas how  to get a discrete console.
I have a Helios console ( Island records) 1976.
When I bought it in 1984 I thought it was affordable because I couln't anticipate the expense and time that it took us to refurbish that beautiful desk. I probably wouldn't have done it if I had foreseen it but now I enjoy it a. After all you wouldn't call it affordable anymore.
I probably could as well have bought one of the following solutions. They are all discrete.

George Massenburg's Rack Mixer 9100 is probably the best analogue Mixer you can get regarding sonic quality. Its accuracy, frequency response and resolution is unmatched as far as I know. For me it's the most desirable. It's not a console and again you wouldn't probably call it affordable.
There is a studio owner in Ibiza/Spain who uses it exclusively for the returns of his reverbs into his SSL. How Sad!
http://www.massenburg.com/cgi-bin/ml/mod9100.html

API offers a rack mixer. You can choose an input module with mic pre, eq and compressor , 1 unit 8 channel stereo mixers and a master module. All stages are just the same as in their big consoles.
You get that  API sound.
http://www.apiaudio.com/7800.html

Chandler builds a small rack mixer copied from the EMI TG mixers. Beatles " Abbey Road" and Pink Floyd "Dark Side OF The Moon" were recorded on these desks.
You can see the originals on this site. They are still alive.
Mike Hedges owns the "Dark Side OF The Moon" console.
http://www.tgmixers.co.uk/
http://chandlerlimited.com/products/minitgrackmixer.php

http://chandlerlimited.com/products/minitgmoduleframe.php

Check the site of Jan Bloemsma. He lives in your country. Jan is an experienced engineer with a knowledge of discrete audio. He offers a Siemens 6x2 all discrete Mixer and various modules. You can download schematics of audio classics from his site.

http://www.bloemsma.tk/

Good luck

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Peter Weihe

RMoore

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2004, 02:33:19 PM »

Hi Guys - thanks for the replies!

'affordable' - I guess $0-30,000
So no 150k for a Helios or Neve..

That Vintech tube desk - I've seen that site before..
do you think that's real or a spoof?
Some bizarre money losing project for tax reasons..?
Seems there would be no buyers if it were for real...or?

A Helios - you are a lucky man!
Yes - if I knew what I know now 20 years ago (and had the cash)..
Although I was about 16 so not really looking out for discrete mixing consoles Smile

Funny you mention Jan Bloemsma - I actually know him & bought some Siemens modules years ago..great guy! An old Tonmeister..
Actually he is the one who got me into the 'build' side of gear by popping the lid on some of that stuff and explaining the layout, components etc..
Got me into a whole new World of understanding how gear works - before , everything to me was simply a nice magic box with knobs & purty lights (!)..no joke..

Small world,

Discrete rules!
Thnx,
RM
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RMoore

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2004, 02:46:07 PM »

Looking more closely at Vintech:

< A Vintec C3 in the 56 channel version equipped with 48 x TAB V76/80 (only installed in C3 prototype) are awaiting you.>

48 x V76 (!).



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People's Republic of Ryan

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George Massenburg

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2004, 03:02:07 PM »

Look, a great analog desk is more than calling it a "discrete" this or that.  

The great analog signal path is part of the picture.  Yes, you'll look for very well stabilized discrete transistor gain stages (and even good IC op-amps, which, believe it or not are almost as expensive) and very-high-quality passive components (resistors & capacitors & even wire), but also you'll want to have very stable, well-filtered DC power supplies (filtered at the supply but also locally at each transition point).  And don't forget a solid ground path.  For a long time, we only specified linear regulation, but now that the very high-frequency switchers are getting cleaner, that might be an option.  And don't forget high-quality connectoring...at least gold over copper, if not silver.  And all of the connectors and switches need to be selected for reliability and superb conductivity (and no very low-level non-linearity!)

And how could I fail to mention a reliable, tested, competent design?  Balanced mixing, of course, to minimize accumulated noise across long mix busses.

Oh yeah, before I forget it, the EU has declared that there shall be no lead in any electronics assembly approved for sale in Europe after 2007 (I think).  So now you've got to find components that will withstand the high temperatures of silver-tin solder.  That may do in those polystyrene capacitors, one of our mainstays.  As well as Elma's and Wima's, other essential components that we use everywhere.

Is it any wonder I churn inside when someone asks why this kind of approach is so expensive (more than a 100x multiple) when Mackie's and Behringer's are so cheap?  

Does it come as a surprise that you hear sales and marketing pitches (a.k.a. "lies") that try to convince you it doesn't matter?  ...that you can do just as well with a Liquid Channel?

Kinda makes me want to design for the Defense Department.

George
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Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2004, 03:59:50 PM »


Millennia Media have a discreet modular system called "Mixing Suite" that looks pretty great. As of Jan 1, they will be phasing the mixing suite out of production.

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/mixingsuite.shtml

Cheers,
Eric
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RMoore

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2004, 04:07:24 PM »

OK - thnx for the reality check GM,
indeed there is so much more to the equation than simple gear dogma like 'discrete', 'class A', etc etc..
I guess then - whats a good , well designed desk for $0-30,000 ?
I find the IC stuff I have tends to sound 'thin'..
Your karma ran over my dogma

On another note: DOD..I guess they have lured away lots of brilliant designers and engineers..

FWIW - I bought an old, <possible boat anchor>, DOD Federal limiter & the users manual on that thing is incredible..it goes 'beyond'..the best part is how to scuttle the limiter so it doesn't fall into enemy hands..there's a whole procedure list like:

chop with an axe
shoot it
drive a truck over it
burn it
scatter parts
bury

4 real..very thorough..
!

Cheers,
RM
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People's Republic of Ryan

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hollywood_steve

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2004, 05:09:36 PM »

As of Jan 1, they will be phasing the mixing suite out of production.



I saw this note on their web site.  Anyone know why?  Not profitable or are they bringing out a replacement product?

Just curious?  I always thought it was a cool idea, but not exactly right for me.  But I hope that they are replacing it with something, not just dropping it.
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Peter Weihe

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2004, 06:50:44 PM »

George Massenburg wrote on Sun, 05 December 2004 21:02


Is it any wonder I churn inside when someone asks why this kind of approach is so expensive (more than a 100x multiple) when Mackie's and Behringer's are so cheap?


No , of course not., George. The daily usage of my GML gear convinced me, that you simply try to build these masterpieces a good as possible in every aspect. The more I used it , the more I wanted to bypass all other stages in my recording chain.  They are worth every cent. The problem is, that the majority of engineers, musicians or producers have  never really listened to your equipment without a stage following in the signal path that is degrading the sonic quality  before it reaches their ears. Consequently they have never really heard the difference.They connect it to cheap converters or to cheap consoles with third class cables and try to rate that quality through the eye of a needle. In my workshops I have experienced that many people's horizon expands dramatically when they hear a pure path with GML equipment for the first time. They can't believe how much detail is getting lost, when I insert a piece of "well respected "budget gear or converter in that chain.
This is even true for very successful engineers or producers who have been around for many years.Consequently the sonic quality of your mixer simply is beyond their imagination. I don't know any console that could transport that quality. Engineers would have to bypass the monitoring section of their consoles to find out.
Recently I took my GML pre amp to a session for acoustic guitar recordings. The engineer insisted on running it through his console's  channel strip, because he was afraid, that it might have sounded so much better than his MCI 500.
Some months ago I tried to find a GML 9100 mixer in Germany as a reference for an analogue summing test. The only one I had seen here before serves as a reverb return submixer for a SSL  in Ibiza.. So it's really sad but it's no wonder that hardly anybody knows that quality over here.

Quote:

 
Does it come as a surprise that you hear sales and marketing pitches (a.k.a. "lies") that try to convince you it doesn't matter?  ...that you can do just as well with a Liquid Channel?

No, because they don't know what they are talking about.
Recently a guy from a well know German budget audio company took part in one of my workshops and he dared to bring in his newest amp simulator for a shootout. Everybody was rolling on the floor laughing, when we compared it to the real stuff.
The poor man was honestly shocked because he simply didn't know the difference himself before.
One producer said: " Now I know, why I 've always had difficulties to mix guitars".
But the good news is: I can see that these little experiments
really change their visual angle. We simply have to know something before we can appreciate it.
I would love to find a GML 9100 in Germany and demonstrate it on my workshop.
I asked Bernard Frings about it, but he didn't know one either.

Another important point is that recording budgets nowadays are only a quarter of what they have used to be over here. There's a German producer, who won the German grammy (Echo) three years ago and simply stopped his buisiness because it could not even cover the monthly costs anymore. His income through licence had dropped by 90%.
I get the same wages , no matter whether I play somewhere in mothers  kitchen with one guitar or if  I offer my fully equipped analogue and digital studio. Nobody is willing to pay for a studio for guitar sessions anymore, because it would be  possible to produce in basement  with a labtop .No matter how it sounds.
The rest is pure private luxury. But I see my customers appreciate it more and more.
Quote:


Kinda makes me want to design for the Defense Department.
George

You don't want to see your mixer flying to Iraq, do you?

My technician said :" I have the impression that in comparison to GML the circuit design of most of the other audio gear looks like : stoned assistants having a party while designing."

Best Peter

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Peter Weihe

JGreenslade

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2004, 08:26:26 PM »

Quote:


guess more to the point is - what AFFORDAble desks ,that are IC free, exist today..



Not many built in the last 25 years… I reckon some people will pull faces reading this list, but OTOH in that price range:

Sphere (Rare, creeping up in value, several ranges, other members on PSW are qualified to comment rather than me)

Audix (many ranges, mostly for broadcast. With TLC they can polish up nicely, some models designed by ex-Neve employees. With Marinair transformers, same as Neve 10** series)

Tweed (another Neve offshoot, looks similar, very rare)

PYE (another broadcast desk, can only comment on compressor which is cool, quite rare)

Trident “B range” (Discrete, but according to most techs require scary amount of work to become usable)

Ward Beck (known as the “Australian Neve”, quite rare and probably going up in value)

I do not have experience on all these desks but have seen them in the price range you cite.

You will need to be handy with a soldering iron and a ‘scope to get the best from any console of the above vintage...

There must be loads more... Studer??

BTW, FWIW, I read at the old PSW that a 96 channel Vintec will cost you around $800K USD

Justin
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djui5

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2004, 09:29:30 PM »

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Brian Roth

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2004, 02:42:54 AM »

Ryan, I have NO idea if the Vintec tube desk is a hoax, vapor-ware, or whatever.  Perhaps a reader of this forum lives in Germany and can investigate.

If a hoax, they sure went to a lot of trouble!

Bri

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Brian Roth

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Re: Discrete mixing desks
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2004, 02:48:45 AM »

Justin, for some reason I thought that Ward-Beck was Canadian, not Aussie, but I may learn something new.

Audix (not to be confused with the USA maker of mics or speakers or whatever) did do an interesting line of Neve-ish gear.  I racked up a pair of their 70's era mic pre/EQ modules last year:

http://www.rothtech.org/audix.jpg

Bri
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