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[Thorens30]

Yesterday my dealer showed me a couple of chinese mics SE brand..
He said that the model SE ELECTRONICS Z3300A sounds better than a NEUMANN TLM103...
i compared the mics...
lies..
NEUMANN have the mids in the right place (real depth) and chinese lack of mids and very accentuated in the highs...
NEUMANN TLM 103 = 909 EURO
SE ELECTRONICS Z3300A = 423 EURO
i said my opinions about chinese mics in other forums...and many people said these mics were amazing ...
am i lack of hearing...or the world is getting crazy????

[malice]

There isn't such thing as "bad mics"

only people that chose them poorly

malice

[meverylame]

malice wrote on Thu, 25 November 2004 10:43

There isn't such thing as "bad mics" only people that chose them poorly malice

Yes.

Rock on Malice.

Jason

[John Ivan]

Hi All, and Happy Thanksgiving!!

I don't have much $$ for the studio these days because I'm spending a lot of time playing live and using my rig to record things I'm directly involved with as a player. As a result,the china mics are very attractive to me if I can make them work. As I get a little older,I start to see that there is a place for most tools,even the ones that don't cost much. I have not A/B'd the mics you mention so I can not comment other than to say, I have NEVER found a 414,for instance, to work on any vocal I've tried it on .{not sure which models and I understand they are all different}.On the other hand,I have found the cheap studio projects C-1 to sound great on some male and female singers. I have no doubt that in general the big boys are making better mics, I just find myself asking,as we all should, Better for what? There is a male singer I record a lot who sounds great on an RE=20. We went through everything we had and then some and the EV mic won hands down. I'm really digin' where I am in the never ending learning curve. Suddenly, they're not toys. They are tools that all have a use. Took me long enough to realize this though :-}

[gtoledo3]

No, there really is such a thing as a bad mic.

I would agree that many mics that people would say "suck" can be wonderful in the correct application.

But some mics are truly bad.

"There isn't such thing as "bad mics"

only people that chose them poorly

malice "

That makes for a nice saying at least.

[Thorens30]

But there are bad mylar capsules...the topic is about "condenser mics" not everything..
As i see poor mylar capsule build = poor crap sound
If you consider not all  voices are the same  the choice for buy a cheap  mic you cannot  go wrong..but a good condenser mic must be suitable for everything(acoustic,voice,amplifier capture,ambience capture) not only a special voice of someone...
If i spend 1000 euro for a mic..it must be good for 10 years of working..as i see in our studio u47 are still working from the 60'
A good mic design = i don't need a 2000$ preamplifier for get enough good sound from my mic.
When you know some high class mics = you will understand how good is a cheap condenser.
I see these days a lot of funny promotion...like chewman..the asian neumanns..
If you can buy two cheaps mics at the price of 1 neumann consider you will get stereo pair(PRO)..but you don't get full sound you really need(CONS)..
I hope dealers will stop to compare chinese mics with neumman or other brands like akg,etc..
Is like to compare all ferrari models  with a ford mustang,capri etc...
When chinese mics factory will be able to do pure mylar capsule..i will be happy to give them my money..i don't need junk in studio because is cheap..i need things that i will use all time, not only sometimes...
You cannot buy 10 condensers mics every year...because sounds a little different..or sounds like a deal..
Nothing is cheap..everything have a price..

[malice]

I agree thorens


What I meant with the smartass saying George gently noticed is also that you could probably end with a great "Chewman" as well as long as you are able to pick one of them among the lot of "not so great" Chewman you will try during your next trip in Shangai ...

Quality control is not a little part of the equation here.


Quality control might be considered as an important parameter in what made a company like Neumann a leader in microphone manufacturing.

We, and for that matter a company like Studio Electronic knows what the good mic design is. It ain't rocket sience to copy an already great mic design.

What will makes the difference is the time and the expertise of the guy that will or will not agnowledge a given piece of equipment to be stamped witht the shop's name.


In other word, you can buy a mic cheap, but you will have to be able to pick it up with your ears wich is not an easy task.

The other explaination of my smartass saying is that even a mic that is terrible on a given application might be the solution for another application.


Otherwise the "bullet" would have stayed a terrible mic, and not the blues harmonica mic by excelence ...

It's all about perspective you know

malice

[gtoledo3]

Oh yeah, I agree with where you are coming from Malice....

When you said "no bad mics" I just had a flash back to a free "stageworks" mic that was thrown in on a purchase I made. Truly horrible, with no redeeming qualities. I am sure I could get a useable sound out of it, but there would never be a time that something else wouldn't sound better. There are truly mics that is always the case with.

Of course you have things like the green bullet, or old crystal element mics, that sound "bad" but "bad" in a "good" way.

[John Ivan]

Hi all;
Thorens, You mentioned that with really great mics, You might not need to have great pre's. You at least implied this. I have not found this to be the case at all. Not only on a "quality" basis but, also on a "difference" basis, it is important that the pre we plug into for any given application,be the right one. Now, "right one" can change very quickly from track to track. At a session in Detroit at a little room on 9-mile RD we were recording vocals for a band I was in. This girl sang her ass of and is still making a killing doing sessions in Detroit. I was not the engineer on the session but was watching very closely. An old U-87 was chosen {I think?} and we went threw maybe 15 or 20 thousand US Dollars worth of pre's before we landed and stayed on an old V 6xx  series telefunken pre. This might have been the cheapest pre in the house at that moment but it sounded better than every thing else. We were printing to 2" tape that day and I'll bet you that if it hade been a Hard drive session, we would have ended up with something else.

The point I'm making is, I don't dismiss any piece of gear, out of hand because my limited experience tells me not to. I don't doubt your choice about the TL mic at all, I'm just saying I learned the hard way to keep my mind open to what my ears say as first priority.

[Thorens30]

>I was not the engineer on the session but was watching very >closely. An old U-87 was chosen {I think?} and we went threw maybe >15 or 20 thousand US Dollars worth of pre's before we landed and >stayed on an old V 6xx  series telefunken pre. This might have >been the cheapest pre in the house at that moment but it sounded >better than every thing else. We were printing to 2" tape that day >and I'll bet you that if it hade been a Hard drive session, we >would have ended up with something else.
Old U-87 Is still a great mic ..new one cost something like 1800 euro...Telefunken pres are great...not bad stuff..i don't see chinese stuff here..

[John Ivan]

Right, This was all really good stuff so, I guess I used a bad example. What I will say however is, I find that cheap mics have a spot in what I do and in some cases work better than something that costs a lot more money. It just depends on the source. I've been down this road a lot and don't have much money and have found that it's the players and the arrangement that trumps the gear every time. A great bunch of players and a great engineer can make an astoundingly great sounding record on a Peavey mixer and a pile of 57's if they need to. That is not to say it would not be any better if they recorded at a killer room with top notch gear. I'm just saying I'm glad that inexpensive stuff is out there that is useable and in fact,good sounding in the right hands. Some day, I'll own a ton of expensive stuff instead of only being able to use it a couple times per year.

Ya know,, It's always about people!! I've heard really really bad stuff come out of $1200.00 per day rooms and really really great stuff come out of $400.00 per day rooms and vise-versa. It's just about people. The gear is how we get it to the listener and until there is a better way, we will have to keep screwing around with gear.. I'm working on a way to just "Think" the parts onto the CD but it has not worked yet :-}........


P.S. Sorry about the double post. There was a flood error.

[McAllister]

SE mics are ok if you know 'em and use 'em appropriately.

Mine does, in no way, match the quality of a Neumann.

M

[Han S.]

Chinese Mics Junk?

The same was said about Japanese cars in the sixties and look what happened.

A Studio Projects B1 sounds much better on many applications than an AKG C1000 or C3000, but costs less than 1/2 and 1/3.

The Marshall MXL V77 sounds better on many voices than the TLM103 indeed and it will set you back for only $300.

[moogus]

Ive recently had some great experience with the SM Pro MC03.  Had it up with a Rode Classic 2 and a first batch C24 (on male vox) and couldnt decide if I liked the MC03 or the C24 better.  

Considering you can get these things for under US$500 and they come with a great shockmount and look good, thats not a bad deal.

Its made me rethink the 'chinese mics are crap' dogma.


M

[Thorens30]

A Studio Projects B1 sounds much better on many applications than an AKG C1000 or C3000, but costs less than 1/2 and 1/3.[/quote]
AKG C1000 and C3000 are not true mylar style condenser mics..but  electret-style condenser ..that's very different sound...i don't know about marshall..