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Author Topic: Hard Panning and Low End  (Read 13595 times)

bblackwood

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2005, 01:21:15 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 08 January 2005 11:19

Can you cite any research that contradicts what the inventors of stereo recording found?

Nope, just empirical evidence. When I played 20, 30, and 35 Hz tones in my room, I couldn't tell where the sub was from audible cues...

I never said no one could hear stereo at 30Hz, just that I don't think that I do. Research of the masses only gives you a bell curve, an average.

Oh, I forgot, mastering engineers are supposed to always say they hear everything. Dangit.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Ned Neiderlander

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2005, 02:05:21 AM »

Quote:

Another benefit is that you now have two drivers (antinodes) physically separated. This will tend to break up the room modes and make them more complex, resulting in less severe peaks and nulls.


I definitely see how the SBIR effect would get smoothed out by two subs, but room modes?  So you double the energy.  On the SBIR side, you scatter the energy over different peaks, resulting in flatter behavior there.  But the energy at room modes will be doubled as well (albeit perhaps distributed a little differently over the harmonics).  And they will resultingly become greater in proportion to the SBIR pattern, which I think would result in an even more uneven response (assuming that the speakers were placed in order for the SBIR pattern to mitigate modal response).

Uh oh, I feel that old familiar head pain that I used to get in math class.

Brad, would you mind posting curves of your room with and without the sub?  Maybe moving 'em around a couple times, too?

I was into the the method that the guys at etfacoustic.com recommend for speaker placement.  Their logic is sound regarding how far away the grid points should be.  You would think that this would be the best way to get that sub nice and flat.  What method did you use for placing your 1st sub?

The reason I'm really wanting to get to the bottom of this is that I am trying to figure out my next monitoring system move.  I want to get the bass right as first priority because bass masking affects everything up the frequency chain pretty dramatically from a psychoacoustics perspective.  If i don't have the bass right, i might as well mix on a My First Sony.  I was thinking about going with some sort of a sub system, like dyn BM stuff, because being able to move the sub around allows you to treat the imaging as a separate issue from the modal/SBIR response issue.  If I have more choices as to where to put the bass driver (because it isn't going to affect imaging) then I can potentially get a flatter bass response.  Is this kooky thinking?  I also plan on moving around in unpredictable small spaces in NYC.  So that bass management problem is like magnified by a thousand.

Right now I'm using (don't laugh) Event 20/20bas because when I shopped around they sounded very similar to the genny 1031s, which were all the rage at the time.  I'm looking to spend as much as roughly 3gs on a system now, to bump me up to the next tier.  
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John Moore
Minds Dozer, Inc.

mikepecchio

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2005, 09:03:38 PM »


for the most part I really can't stand the sound of a hard-panned instrument that has alot of low end content.  a stereo recording (ie correlated L-R) doesn't have the same effect on me.  but a mix with a rhodes left and bass guitar right usually drives me up the wall. although sometimes it is done in a way that sounds ok to me.  

just my personal prefrence. maybe i listened to too much vinyl on headphones growing up.  anyone else feel the same about this?

i'll usually use an M/S eq with a low shelf or bell curve to bring down the lows in the sides a bit when i hear it happening too much.

mike p
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Throatsinger

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2005, 12:27:43 AM »

Interesting discussion, guys.

I can produce vocal tones well below 40 Hz, and in such a case I sure can tell (feel) where it's coming from! Admittedly, not much volume below 35 or so, and I'm sure my monitors aren't capable of producing much of that fundamental. I'd love to hear it with a more capable system.

This requires engagement of the ventricular folds of the larynx in concert with the vocal folds, with the ventricular folds vibrating with a fundamental 1/2 the speed of the vocal folds. This is also how the Tibetan monks produce powerful chordal sounds in the 80 Hz range.

Example: http://khoomei.com/low.htm
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