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Author Topic: Hard Panning and Low End  (Read 13594 times)

Big Bri

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Hard Panning and Low End
« on: November 17, 2004, 01:35:26 AM »

I had an assistant ask a very interesting question and I really didn't know how to answer him.  He asked "Is there a rule of thumb for cutting low end on hard panned instruments"?  Now, I learned mixing from guys who mixed for vinyl where you had to budget your low end for the sake of how the groove would be cut, so I do what I was taught back then. Habit I guess, but I couldn't give him a definitive answer.  What do you guys think?

Best regards,
Brian
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TotalSonic

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2004, 01:54:04 AM »

To me the only time this is of concern would be for vinyl - otherwise just use your ears and mix so it sounds good to you, and that in the digital realm there really is no rule of thumb in regards to this.  

And as you mention - for vinyl if you want to be able to have your record cut to the highest possible peak level - and to make sure we don't have to clamp on the elliptical equalizers and the vertical limiters - then keep the bass elements centered.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

lucey

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2004, 04:41:42 PM »



Was vinyl cutting the beginning of the "bass is non-directional" myth?

I was at the symphony recently and bass frequencies are very directional!
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Brian Lucey
Magic Garden Mastering

"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

bblackwood

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2004, 04:45:21 PM »

lucey wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 15:41


I was at the symphony recently and bass frequencies are very directional!

Depends on frequency.

I sure can't tell where a 30Hz tone is coming from...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

PP

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2004, 05:43:07 PM »

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TotalSonic

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2004, 06:29:43 PM »

lucey wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 21:41



Was vinyl cutting the beginning of the "bass is non-directional" myth?

I was at the symphony recently and bass frequencies are very directional!


Except all the bass frequency generating instruments of the orchestra (i.e. double bass, tuba, contra-bassoon, timpani, bass drum, etc.) are also producing a ton of overtones on top of their fundamentals which is what is giving you the directional info.

Anyway - I'm with Brad - I definitely don't hear 30Hz as directional!

fwiw - the Elliptical Equalizers in our SP-79 can be set to sum to mono either  below 150Hz or 300Hz.  Even up to 300Hz it's amazing how much of the stereo image for a lot of material is still preserved.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

dcollins

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2004, 01:13:40 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 13:45


I sure can't tell where a 30Hz tone is coming from...


Hint:  The Speaker.

You're welcome.

DC

dcollins

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2004, 01:23:03 AM »

Peter  Oxford wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 14:43



The other thing is Low Frequencies need actual space for the wave to fully develop…. Acoustical Musical Instruments are designed to project their sound into an Acoustic Space….. We’re talking Concert Hall Space…… Designed to accommodate it.



If this is the case, how do I get such amazing bass from my headphones?  Certainly they wont have room to develop in the space available?

How's that bio coming, old bean?

DC

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2004, 03:26:33 AM »

lucey wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 15:41



Was vinyl cutting the beginning of the "bass is non-directional" myth?

Not at all. It began in the early days of stereo, before bookshelf speakers, when people's spouses refused to allow bringing another big floor-standing speaker into the living room. I think EV was the first to offer a "satellite" speaker setup that mixed both channels of low-end to your existing speaker but split the stereo between that and a small box containing the midrange and tweeter.

In the early '70s quad met with the same domestic resistance so the hi-fi industry trotted out the same old chestnut once again. It didn't have any science behind it in the late '50s and it doesn't now. The same crowd of marketers came up with the room size myth.

Nobody I knew combined the low-end for vinyl although it's a good idea to be careful with the low end of things panned extreme left and right.

bblackwood

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2004, 07:22:03 AM »

dcollins wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 00:13

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 13:45


I sure can't tell where a 30Hz tone is coming from...


Hint:  The Speaker.

You're welcome.

Nicely done.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

lucey

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2004, 09:05:09 AM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 03:26



In the early '70s quad met with the same domestic resistance so the hi-fi industry trotted out the same old chestnut once again. It didn't have any science behind it in the late '50s and it doesn't now. The same crowd of marketers came up with the room size myth.



So it's the women!

Perhaps this was also the beginning of the "balanced expenditures myth" ... which goes something like: If you buy X dollars on equipment I need X dollars on clothes or jewelery







under 30 is 'sub bass' by my count Wink
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Brian Lucey
Magic Garden Mastering

"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

Gold

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2004, 11:01:59 AM »

Quote:

 fwiw - the Elliptical Equalizers in our SP-79 can be set to sum to mono either  below 150Hz or 300Hz.


The EE77D can also be set up for 75Hz and 150Hz. It's the half speed setting. I have the EE70 which is an earlier LC design. They can be set up either way too. I have them set to 150Hz and 300Hz.
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Paul Gold
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barefoot

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2004, 01:02:27 PM »

There is a practical reason besides vinyl to keep the deep bass centered.     It generally results in less distortion because the speakers share the load.    For the same loudness a hard panned track produces twice the speaker excursion as a centered track.

Thomas
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Thomas Barefoot
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2004, 04:14:46 PM »

The original reason for mixing bass, kick, snare and vocals in the middle was because we couldn't count on program directors having both channels hooked up just like we couldn't count on them turning up the volume!

When retailers refused to continue carrying mono records, we simply turned stereo into something just as close to mono as possible.

Don't get me started on "surround..."

ammitsboel

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Re: Hard Panning and Low End
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2004, 04:27:16 PM »

dcollins wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 06:13

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 13:45


I sure can't tell where a 30Hz tone is coming from...


Hint:  The Speaker.

You're welcome.

DC



Hint: or your stomach

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