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[Wyn Davis]

I strongly recommend that anyone who has the internal strength to actually sit through it, make time to watch the HBO documentary

[lucey]

Good to hear that you enjoyed it.   I would have liked to see their caskets landing at Andrews AFB from time to time.

But Bush blocks it out



I'd like to hear their names read on Nighline.

But Sinclair Media blocked it out



I'd like to see a show on the 20,000 to 100,000 Iraqi civilians who have been killed or mamed ... anything on the horizon?

How about some photos from Falujah showing the almost total destruction ... "Hello Allstate? I'd like to invoke my US Invasion coverage ..."

I'd rather not sit through a tear jerker on the honorable service and death of a thousand soldiers.  The myth of the Soldier Hero in Iraq, the American Martyr for World Freedom, is more pain then I would choose.

I did see a show on soldiers leaving Iraq stealing the identity of new soldiers and raping their bank accounts in the US while they served.  That was a good perspective on the US soldier and their plight.


And a show on the mamed and seriously injured US soldiers who are never counted in any reports of casualties .. over 10,000 of them   so far.  And their Health Care through the VA ... horrible.   That was an interesting perspective on the misinformation coming out of Bush and Co. and his real concern for the soldiers that come home without arms and legs and in wheelchairs for life.

It's easy to feel bad for the dead, and to make them heroes for a cause ... it's harder for the President to actually care and respect the living wounded.




And that show on Military families buying Body Armor as it was not provided since Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz said over and over that Iraq would fall easily ... that was an interesting perspective on things.


Respectfully,

[PRobb]

It is essential that we separate our feelings for our troops and our felings for the policies that sent them to war.

[Wyn Davis]

Brian,

I think I understand your points, I do not think you understand mine. These men and women have died, their lives are over and the lives of their families are forever changed. Watching their families read those letters puts a very sharp focus on some small fraction the human cost of these policies. Numbers, statistics are often abstractions, difficult to assign any emotion to. Reports that 100,000 Iraqis have died during this war overwhelms my ability to feel anything but anger or rage. But the story of one Iraqi family losing its entire family line, both male and female, brings tears.

This issue is not, were these American soldiers heroes. Nor is it about the policy they are charged with executing. The issue is they are gone, their families are suffering. Unless our nation faces the real pain of those losses, grieves and mourns with those families, we will never be able to judge the true cost of these policies, never-mind empathizing with the Iraqi people about theirs.

[t(h)ik]

Wyn,

In my opinion (but what do I know) you have some of the best posts on these political threads.  I think your sentiments are well received.

I think that everyone that gave their life for this country is a hero.  There is no need for a caveat.

So why amigo, did you state in your first post "politics aside" and then go on to post a politically contrived casualty count for Iraqis?

Of course we are all one world and it is a shame that innocent Iraqi lives were thrown away....what idiots we all are....

This is my only....I repeat only complaint about the people who indict the cowboy posting here.  I believe they respect mankind and I respect their views....but they believe, recite and repeat.....propaganda....

To what end my friend.....

Love and Respect...

TIK

[Wyn Davis]

TIK

I am thinking that you (like me) find the loss of innocent lives horrifying and the number of 100,000 rips across your consciousness causing enough psychic pain that it is impossible to face it squarely.

I DO NOT KNOW how many civilian lives have been lost since the start of Iraqi Freedom. The quotation of 100,000 comes from a Johns Hopkins peer reviewed study. I pray it is wildly overstated. My intention is not to inflame the discussion by throwing "politically motivated" figures into the mix. If it is 100k, 50K, 20K, it is a massive human tragedy. In the absence of this administration's attempt to make a reliable estimate of civilian casualties, we are left with institutional studies, foreign press estimates, and estimates made by opposing groups in the areas of conflict. One thing is sure, the administration's characterization of civilian casualties as "hardly any" is not accurate or adequate and does not help promote public understanding of the scope of this nightmare.

Quote:

I think that everyone that gave their life for this country is a hero.

If there are heroes in war, then I guess every person who gives their life for what they believe in, is a hero. In our own history we understand that at Gettysburg, there were heroes on both sides. I believe any person who loses their life either defending, saving or protecting the life of another, is a hero, regardless of what flag flies over their body.

Finally, while there will undoubtedly be more military heroes, I find myself worrying more about the heroes who have to face life, raise children and go forward without their husbands, dads, moms, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters. They are the rest of the uncounted civilian casualties.

[ted nightshade]

I would like to think that all those who have had their lives put through excruciating pain due to this, which indeed includes a lot of folks back home who have loved ones in the service, experienced that pain "for their country", but I am not at all sure that such is the case.

That such personal losses are in large part very likely taking place for the personal gain of a few, is much more than appalling. It's absolutely criminal, on a scale that is hard to find a perspective for.

Seeing footage of one woman's grief over the loss of a child really brought it home to me- in the sense of, my home, my family, what it would be like for me to lose one of my loved ones to violence- in a big way- it had that effect on me with the Iraqi mother as well as the American mother, but I will say that the American mother reminded me at least a little more of my own mother!

I don't think we are able to understand the proportions of that infinite loss for one human, times the number of humans undergoing such a loss- how many Americans and Iraqis lost a loved one, had a loved one maimed, had a loved one lose their mind over this living nightmare?

We'll never know- we aren't counting.

[t(h)ik]

Wyn,

....

cool

T

[lucey]

Wyn Davis wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 00:12

Brian, I think I understand your points, I do not think you understand mine. These men and women have died, their lives are over and the lives of their families are forever changed. Watching their families read those letters puts a very sharp focus on some small fraction the human cost of these policies. Numbers, statistics are often abstractions, difficult to assign any emotion to. Reports that 100,000 Iraqis have died during this war overwhelms my ability to feel anything but anger or rage. But the story of one Iraqi family losing its entire family line, both male and female, brings tears. This issue is not, were these American soldiers heroes. Nor is it about the policy they are charged with executing. The issue is they are gone, their families are suffering. Unless our nation faces the real pain of those losses, grieves and mourns with those families, we will never be able to judge the true cost of these policies, never-mind empathizing with the Iraqi people about theirs.

We agree 100%

My point is that Bush does not agree .. he does not want  tear jerking, he wants the separation of reality.

What you are saying rings of truth, of connection.

What the administration does is to intentionally keep us from seeing the coffins.  This is not liberal spin, this is hard fact.  And it is the only administration to do so.

This administration has also fueled an ideological hysteria in its followers (with actions such as keeping Kerry supporters out of Bush rallies) such that Sinclar Media chooses to keep the names from being read in my home.   Similarly Sinclair pulled Bill Maher from the air for saying the terrorists have the balls to fly a jet into the towers ... and we who launch missiles from high tech bunkers are calling them "cowards" ???  The responsibility here is with Sinclair, yet a leader sets the tone and the followers "follow" that tone in their own way.  And our leader is not one who seeks to understand and feel and relate to the enemy, only to hide behind ideology and to create a golf that allows for horrific immorality in the name of victory.



But in this I'm with you 100%, we need a human face to this war.

Like the face of Bush Sr. and Rumsfeld in league with Saddam not many years ago ... or the face of Reagan arming what became Al Qauda to fight the USSR, an overblown threat.

The face of American policy is all over the chaos of the Middle East, yet we continue to see them as separate and lesser, as subservient and as acceptable casualties of progress.

War is hell, and to enter hell as anything but a last resort is a failure of policy for all the reasons that the emotions of such shows bring ...  I'm certain that the Right and the supporters of the cut-and-dried policy of Bush do NOT feel the reality or SEE the reality.  What they feel is fear and righteousness and superiority, and what they see is an evil to be beaten down by death and war.  



So for me to watch, would make me sick with anger ... I would not feel connected through observing this suffering.  To see suffering in any single person that is unnecessary makes me upset ... this is why I discuss things, to work toward truth, the only salve for pain.

To see the massive pain of many in our immediate culture and to extrapolate the pain on their culture and the world any more than I can do with this perspective, would be too much to bear.

[Wyn Davis]

Brian,

I stand with you in your outrage and frustration. We are both blinking, dumbfounded witnesses to something that will undoubtedly go down in history as criminal slaughter. Long after those directly responsible are gone, our decedents will feel the shame of what we have done. Perhaps we will live long enough to face the questions of subsequent generations about how we let this happen.

I understand you cannot bear to look. If you were here, you would see in my face and eyes that I do understand. Some things are too horrible to let in. Sometimes I feel that if I allow myself to fully experience the sadness of what is happening, I may not be able to return to ordinary things.

If one day my grandchildren ask me about this time, I want to be able to tell them that I experienced it as the horror it is, and that while I did not allow it to take me all the way down, I did not turn away completely. That is my way of accepting some of the responsibility for what is being done in our name.

Thank you for sharing your perspective on this nightmare. I am pretty sure we understand one another.

[lucey]

Wyn Davis wrote on Thu, 18 November 2004 19:18

Thank you for sharing your perspective on this nightmare. I am pretty sure we understand one another.

Just a liberal wimp who cant take a the smell of burning flesh in the morning, every morning, forever!  Endless war is not my idea of an economic stimulus package.


Seriously, the crux of this biscuit is not to put us anti-Iraq II people in an anti-war or a pacifist prejudice. Liberal is not pacifist, liberal is not wimply.   There is a time to fight and a time not to.   The thing that I see is this ... war is hell, and hell begets hell.  So we need to have a clear positive advantage by going into war.  This has never been so.  And this war was never going to go well on the way out ... that's why we did it, for the military advantage we think we're getting by staying there forever.  But are we?

Actually the US is playing into the hands of BinLaden with Iraq II, making him the genius prophet.  I so WISH that this war would bring us something in return, yet I see that the negatives have been out weighing and out growing the positives for a long time.




Dear Hawks:

Bin Laden and frankly all terrorists are like teenage boys that want to blow up the neighbor lady's mailbox, and spray paint cars, and tee pee the school for fun and macho identity in an immature group.

They're lashing out against a world they are not yet part of yet at the same time they're affected and intimidated by.  They live in the illusion of the 'victim' and don't see the realities of their actions on others, nor do they want to step up to the table of working WITH a troubled planet.  They have polarized themselves against the old lady down the street, or the US in this case.  They say we are evil.  And what do we do? ... the very same thing.  Bad parenting.

Teenage boys with rocket launchers we gave them for presents when we wanted them to shoot the neighbors while we were at the office making money ... and with jetliners full of Americans and fuel need to be taken very seriously and addressed militarily, yet with more than a war here or there.  Yes we have the military to win a war, but it does not win a peace, it just expands the war over land and time, and costs us money we dont have - further weakening our weak and heavily leveraged economy.  The next strike on American soil might just crash the market ... how noble would we be feeling then?  When we cant buy our way out of everything?

Aggressive action in the name of peace is a hypocrisy that we are so blind to as a nation it's almost too much to explain to those who don't want to see it yet.  The denial that we are in as a country right now is amazing and sad and frightening.

It's not liberal weakness to hold your bets and not go all out with every poker hand you're played.  It's intelligence.  Stop praying and start thinking.

Here's a few ideas to ponder:  

* Led by Wal Mart and Sears/KMart and Target the American economy will continue to lose out to China, as we continue to build deficits finding, fighting and inspiring Terrorists and wars with Nation States we have called Evil.  China gives it's companies free money and has no regulations on anything .. it's America 120 years ago x 50 with cell phones and hi tech ways to steal our heritage of manufacturing skill.

* World trade, unregulated, is the greatest threat to the American economy since the Great Depression.  That and the oil reserves that the world's new economies are sucking up fast ... say 50 years left, maybe 70 with new technology.

* Concurrently, Islamofascists are the greatest military threat to America in our history and need to be treated with the respect of a real enemy.

* Indirect war on them, as in Iraq,  will only make them stronger.   They can outlast us, and will if we keep on like this.  They are poor already, their religion's highest ideal lies in their death for a cause, and they are motivated by gaining ground in small steps.  They are also as patient as the Japanese once were both in war and in business.

* Direct war will limit their numbers temporarily, and should be pursued in decisive fashion where decisiveness is likely and collateral damage is nil. Financial means and diplomatic means need to be stepped up however ... terror funding is still tied to our 'friends' the Saudis.

* Innocent civilian casualties anywhere in the Middle East due to US aggression are anathema to our role as a leader for a civilized world of freedom and constitutional law.  The price of each collateral death is immeasurable (although we hand out money to try and make ourselves feel better)

* Middle Easterners on the street, of any religios affiliaton, can be emotional and sentimental to the extreme ... they do not see the 'greater good' of our policies as much as they feel the rage against our ways.   Remember, they have dealt with our wake for 50+ years.

* US Foreign Policy used to use various factions in the Middle East to do our military bidding, now we are attacking various factions with our military to do our diplomatic and intelligence community bidding.  The US is a lazy leader, and needs better methods and a broader understanding of it's impact on the region and it's citizens, including the enemy.

*Building a real and global coalition that will be able to CONTAIN and LIMIT the influence of terrorism and aggressive regimes is not going to happen at this rate, and with our examples.  

To INFLAME is not to CONTAIN terrorists.  

To say "no nukes" to Iran and India and N Korea and to build bunker buster nukes ourselves in not a leadership position with weight or integrity or any chance of sucess.

To live in polarity as they do ... the polarizaton of "us against them" ... will solve nothing and will create more separation and pain across the globe, as it fuels their cause and methodology.




How does a country, defend itself vigorously without pushing the conflict further along?  .. this is the question we need to answer.

How does a person defend themselves without furthering the hate?




If Americans with many shared values can't get past Republican vs. Democrat, how can we forsee anything but endless war with Islamofascists?

[Level]

Quote:

How does a person defend themselves without furthering the hate?

That is a question to be pondered by many for a long time.

Do I have an answer? I have an idea:

Stay to yourself, do your business and love thy neighbor, it can be contagious.
Staying to ones self and loving thy neighbor is tough..like your statement.