Al
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2004, 12:12:10 PM »
| George Massenburg wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 06:48 |
| bobkatz wrote on Mon, 15 November 2004 17:13 |
Pity that each Toto master as the years went on was louder and more and more compressed. Toto is a perfect example of how the loudness race is ruining sound.
BK
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I dunno, Bob. Toto 7 was pretty moderate by today's standards. It was a Doug Sax job.
George
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I dont' have the Toto CDs in my possession, George, but one of my friends brought over some Totos, starting with the oldest and going down to the latest mastering. In this critical, calibrated mastering room I could say unequivocably that the later ones were just squashed, the life slowly but surely being limited or compressed out of them. Compared to modern pop stuff? No, of course not, but on a very objective basis, each succeeding year is hotter and has less dynamics. In our heart of hearts we cannot justify a mastering job that doesn't sound as good as the source. So it boils down to, did the devil make our friend Doug do it, was there some other factor happening (like the source tape was not as good or was squashed a bit itself), or was it the same reflex that makes me or any other mastering engineer do it at least once a week and then regret it  BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2004, 01:02:43 PM »
I have the ToTo live in Amsterdam DVD. The sound is impressive, Vocals are killer I wonder how much of that DVD was re-done in the stdio. I know a couple of the "Live" DVD's that were completely re-done in the studio in post production.
But all that aside I still really like the DVD. I give it my "Worth Seeing" seal.
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2004, 01:37:38 PM »
Toto IV on SACD sucks profusely. I am not the only one that says so..  Poor Mastering. Total injustice of the format. Someone must have not listened to it or had a horrible room, was just plain ignorant or all of the above. It could have been done better running a set of auratones in a public restroom. http://www.highfidelityreviews.net/reviews/review.asp?review number=598768
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 03:32:10 PM »
| bobkatz wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 10:12 |
In this critical, calibrated mastering room I could say unequivocably that the later ones were just squashed, the life slowly but surely being limited or compressed out of them....So it boils down to, did the devil make our friend Doug do it, was there some other factor happening (like the source tape was not as good or was squashed a bit itself), or was it the same reflex that makes me or any other mastering engineer do it at least once a week and then regret it
BK
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I don't have my copy with me at the moment but I think "The Seventh One" that George is talking about, (which he also engineered), was done around 1987 before the level wars began full force. As I recall, this CD is full of dynamics and is a great example of what is right with mixing and mastering. If I play it back to back with more modern recordings I definitely have to reach for the volume control. That's a good thing.
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2004, 05:15:57 PM »
| blairl wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 15:32 |
I don't have my copy with me at the moment but I think "The Seventh One" that George is talking about, (which he also engineered), was done around 1987 before the level wars began full force. As I recall, this CD is full of dynamics and is a great example of what is right with mixing and mastering. If I play it back to back with more modern recordings I definitely have to reach for the volume control. That's a good thing.
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I don't think I heard "The Seventh One". I can't remember which Toto CDs we auditioned...
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2004, 06:31:00 PM »
| Eric Rudd wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 09:13 |
Let's not forget Al Schmitt. I'm fairly sure he tracked a good part of Toto IV, including Rosanna.
[...]
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Maybe. "Africa" for sure. George
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2004, 08:03:28 PM »
I just asked Al about Toto IV. He told me he did all the basic tracking and a lot of the overdubs over at Sunset Sound.
Steve
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2004, 08:08:33 PM »
...I would love to hear Als' opinion of the SACD release. What a fine production though..
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2004, 09:59:52 PM »
Awhile back, when I was an assistant, I asked Jeff Porcaro to play the opening fill into the groove of Rosanna while we were setting up for a session.  Man, was I such an impressionable young pup. Eric
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2004, 02:17:06 AM »
Toto IV would have been Greg Ladanyi at Record One I believe (on the old yellow API with GML wire wrapped automation).
Rail
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« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2004, 03:52:35 AM »
As a sound engineer im always listening to sounds, mix and mastering on most Cd's. But for me at least, TOTO is a bit different.
Im such a fan of the band and the music that I stop listening to the sounds so much and just revert to being a music Fan.
Perhaps thats a testament to how good they sound.
Ive mentioned it to GM in the past, and to those others here who have worked with the band, thanks for your great work.
Steve G you worked on Tambu? Awesome CD, whatever you did on there, Great job. and despite what I said above, it sets one of the high water marks in production for me. I wrote to Elliot Scheiner and told him the same.
to Bob Katz, While im with you all the way on being anti over-squash, I didn't find Minefields "that" bad at all. Not like some things out there, or perhaps it is, and I don't notice cause I like the songs. PS, IM half way through your book, and enjoying it.
here is a pic of my living room wall.
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2004, 06:43:35 AM »
I compared my Toto IV vinyl with my Toto IV CD. The CD sounds like crap, compared to the analog version. Why? It's simply the digital process or it's the mastering engineer/gears that killed the sound? (Maybe they mastered it on a Pro Tools III)
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2004, 06:54:04 AM »
Joe, the SACD (super audio compact disc) is much WORSE that the inferior CD. How about that!
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2004, 07:43:37 AM »
Are you kidding?
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2004, 11:02:54 AM »
| Level wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 10:37 |
Toto IV on SACD sucks profusely.
Poor Mastering. Total injustice of the format. Someone must have not listened to it or had a horrible room, was just plain ignorant or all of the above.
It could have been done better running a set of auratones in a public restroom.
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LMFAO! Bill, how do you really feel? That is some funny shit. I don't remember which song it was, so nobody will have to worry about being incriminated, but I recall seeing a Toto video on TV years ago, and the solo was inaudible. My guess was that the solo was mixed in stereo and accidentally out of phase? Oops! Like I always say, check your mixes in mono before printing them! OK, time for one of my very funny Lukather stories: I'm at a BBQ 10 years ago and Luke is there. Everybody there, including myself, was in ther 20s except for Luke, and I was the only person aside from the host who knew him. We are sitting around a table and getting into a nostalgic '80s music conversation, naming different bands that were hallmarks of the era. Somebody says, "How about Toto?" This was met with an immediate "I hate that fucking band," and people start bitching about Toto, etc. Luke raises his hand and says, "Thank you very much. That's my band." He turns to me and says something like "You know you've made it when people sit around talking about how much they hate your band." He took it really well though. I'm sure he was really concerned what these kids thought as he climbed into his $120,000 sports car and drove back to his multi-million dollar home. It was a pretty funny moment though, and he saw the humor in it, which is good, because since he dishes it out regularly, it's nice to see that he can take it, too. I cracked him real good (I mean, just brutally) before the afternoon was over, but that's a story for another time.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2004, 12:26:04 PM »
Hi Bill, welcome to the club!
Maybe it was the mastering engineer, maybe the mastering house didn?t test the format for the plant properly, maybe the clock, maybe the clock at the plant, maybe...
maybe it was just a bad mastering guy doing a very bad job. But to be honest, I cannot believe this simply because I cannot image that the person, who was responsible for the CD releases of TOTO was not aware that sound was always a very strong factor of the music of TOTO and who would not take care of this as this is something, which you would owe to the fans? The same is true for the mastering engineer! I cannot image that he didn?t care..
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2004, 12:29:05 PM »
Sorry!
My post was a reply to Joe Speranza wondering why the TOTO CDs sound so crap in comparison the Vinyl..
Bob may forgive me...
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2004, 09:25:38 PM »
| Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 01:17 |
Toto IV would have been Greg Ladanyi at Record One I believe (on the old yellow API with GML wire wrapped automation).
Rail
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Rail, Would you please take a deeeep breath and let go of the fucking wire-wrapped SMPTE card??? That is soooo 20 minutes ago... Thanks, George
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« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2004, 02:13:07 AM »
... and I thought I was just being colorful  Wasn't Record One one of your first installations? BTW saw your EQ running under XP at DigiWorld... do you have a shipping date? Cheers. Rail
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« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2004, 03:47:58 AM »
 Yes, Exactly the "Tambu" is the standard I use.(and others) Good job!!
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« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2004, 10:37:15 AM »
| George Massenburg wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 02:25 |
| Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 01:17 |
Toto IV would have been Greg Ladanyi at Record One I believe (on the old yellow API with GML wire wrapped automation).
Rail
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Rail,
Would you please take a deeeep breath and let go of the fucking wire-wrapped SMPTE card??? That is soooo 20 minutes ago...
Thanks,
George
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I have one word for you guys..... "Idris." trim -3 12 13 17 21-32 Eric
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2004, 01:55:03 AM »
Hearing David Hungate sitting in on acoustic rhythm guitar with the Time Jumpers tonight made my month!
Records are fine but they aren't the real deal. We forget that way too often!
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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2004, 07:14:15 AM »
| Eric Rudd wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 09:37 |
[...]
I have one word for you guys..... "Idris."
[...]
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Arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh....George
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2004, 05:14:28 PM »
Oh boy, "wire wrapped," better than blue wire soldered on the boards, aye? Just kidding, but seriously, I wanna know why TOTO used all these no talent guys to do their records with, that is excluding GM....But seriously, what a line-up? Looks like they only worked with the best in the buz, nice luxury, I wonder who was making those decisions? Label? Mgr? The talent themselves?
And how about the budgets on those records, wonder how much they were?
From what I know of Toto's work, it sounds large, lots of cool verb, totally polished with no mistakes, that almost "too perfect" sound of the eighties...Some of the eighties "big hair" bands had that "perfect vocal" thing happening too when they were not yelling, screaming, and making those "imitation devil" screeches which I've come to loathe.
Regardless of how you now feel about their songs, good or bad, you have to give Toto an A+ for the people like GM they chose to work with... that's for sure.
Now does Bob K. have a Toto or two, on his list of reference CDs? I wonder. I wonder about everything since I lack any real talent and because I'm always in a state of confusion and uncertainty.
However there's no doubt about it, Toto made certain they worked with the best.
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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality,
they are not certain; as far as they are certain,
they do not refer to reality."
---Albert Einstein---
I'm also uncertain about everything.
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2005, 08:20:37 PM »
George, Luke told me they are gonna start working on their new TOTO album soon. This time they are thinking about producing it by themselves. Is there a chance that YOU are ever gonna work with them again? Henk-Jan http://josephwilliams.tk
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2005, 09:07:41 PM »
Can anyone tell me the chain for backing vocals on "Rosanna" gotta love that song still.... beside some great harmony..... what outboard choices where made for that sound? Mic type?
thx in advance
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John Bordon
Sound Sculpture USA
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2005, 07:26:09 AM »
The last TOTO cd is not the standard for sound engineering!
It's their worse album.
Sometimes i think that behind those claims there is a Digidesign marketer.
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« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2005, 03:21:33 PM »
Toto iv was remastered By Mark Wilder at Sony, N.Y. using the original master tape.
His playback chain is a Cello Palette, tube amps built by Doug Sax's brother, and large Dunlaveys. I think the converters were Mytek.
I also remember some Millenia gear, perhaps an NSEQ.
Mark Sat me at his mix position, and played Africa. I was and still am totally destroyed.
Yes, I think the cd is not as good as viynl, but on my system- Dcs transport feedind dsd via firewire to dcs converter, Bryston 3B st and Quad ESL 63's or Genelec 8040's with 7060 sub, the SACD is astounding.
Mike Chafee
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« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2005, 05:39:37 PM »
I've read posts by Level before regarding disapointing SACD remastering.
When doing informal DSD converter comparisons I've found there to be a massive difference between a high-end Philips player with digital out and Emm-labs, particularly in the 3-4 kHz region that Level has complained about in the past. The Philips seemed too bright.
Perhaps the problem with DSD mastering is that the consumer converters sound much different than the pro ones. Biggest problem: NO ability to make a reference disk to check on consumer systems.
Whatcha think BOB?
-Kent Walker
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« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2005, 08:42:01 PM »
Which SACD player has a digital out for the DSD bitstream? Even my Flagship top of the mountain Sony is only PCM out digitally and then only the redbook layer.
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« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2005, 10:34:23 PM »
I know of two transports which output the DSD bitstream.
The dcs Verdi on 1394 to various dcs dacs, and the Meitner labs modified Phillips transport on st glass which feeds the Meitner dacs.
The problem is that thet really COST. The dcs without dsd upsampling is $11K, and their best dac, the Elgar is 15K. The Meitner is less, but still a lot.
I own the dcs gear, and my friend Peter McGrath owns the Meitner. They are stupid good(a technical term here)
Many consumer pieces actually downsample to pcm before conversion, and leave a lot to be desired.
Mike Chafee
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« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2005, 10:38:40 PM »
PS
BK will return to tearing up the boards this week. He has been putting in 16 hours a day helping his wife get her book on the history of salsa to press.
Mike Chafee
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« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2005, 10:50:30 PM »
Thanks Mike. Yep, not in the cards for me at this time. Of all of my projects period, only 4 have made it to SACD and really, I am going to sit on the fence. SACD 1.3 is where we are now. SACD 2.0 is coming. I am going to wait.
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« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2005, 01:55:21 PM »
| mike chafee wrote on Mon, 31 January 2005 03:38 |
PS
BK will return to tearing up the boards this week. He has been putting in 16 hours a day helping his wife get her book on the history of salsa to press.
Mike Chafee
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Entitled, "The Condiment Continuum." Eric
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