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Author Topic: Speaking of Jefferson  (Read 14655 times)

t(h)ik

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2004, 03:43:25 pm »

Hey Tom,

Do you really think David is a racist?

I did not get that impression....

It looked like he was citing the erosion of standards real or perceived in America...

I don't know how many babes are actually throwing around fire hoses yet because of lowered physical standards but I thought a racist was someone who denies another person something because of ethnicity....

Maybe you meant to say bigot....

Or hell, maybe you meant to say racist...

Fukk I think he's the anti-christ....

I think the people against the sobered up cowboy are detaching from the mooring of reality....

maybe I just don't understand....

With lustful affection....

TIK
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David Schober

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2004, 04:31:56 pm »

Tom,

Calm down...take a breath.  If you do you'll find that some of the very things you're demanding an answer about are actually in the previous post.

As for that college...I'm trying to remember where I saw it.  It was either on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox...I can't remember which.  I'm racking my brain as to the name of the school, but I seem to remember it was in the mid-southeast.  Maybe VA or NC.  I don't recall the professor's name.  He was a 30-something teaching a core subject like English or history. If I can find the story or remember, I'll post it.

Now to the other points.  Your argument structure needs some help.  Instead of addressing the substance of my comment,  you try to invalidate my argument by saying I should have argued another point.  Doesn't work that way my man.  If you care to respond to what I've said, then we have a dialog.  Raising another issue as you did, is merely  changing the subject.

Example, the busing issue.  Because I am against forced busing for integration doesn't make me a segregationist.  As for me complaining in the 50s??  Well, I was born too late I'm afraid to have done that.  But what I do remember was exactly opposite of what you claimed happened.  Maybe the rewriting of history is what you're doing.   Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue of busing was never that black kids were bussed out of their neighborhoods to another, poorer school.  Back in the 50s kids went to their own, neighborhood schools.  That was the problem.  The white kids had better schools, the black kids had poorer ones.  Busing was created to take white kids into the black areas and vice versa.  I'm afraid Tom your understanding of the whole issue is wrong.  However, you and I are in agreement that it was a sin to have unequal, or even "separate, but equal" policies to hinder integration.  Integration was one of the Democrats greatest achievements, and greatest shame to conservatives.  Can we agree on that?

You did the same on the firefighter issue.  You must have some issue yourself because you started accusing me of lying about that.  Sorry....no lie uttered.  I only stated fact.  Firefighters all across the county have had to give separate strength requirements for females in order to reach quotas, hiring goals, whatever you care to call it.  You then tried to erect a straw man argument, saying "you conservatives..." and then a litany of racist accusations that have nothing to do with me, nor anything I said.  You really got to stop that kind of silliness.  It's easy to see that I never said that.  I don't care if the firefighter is white, black, female male....whatever.  AS LONG AS THEY PASS THE EXAM!!  I don't want anyone to die because some wimpy female, OR MALE, who couldn't carry me or anyone else out of a burning building due to being shuffled along in the acceptence process for social engineering.  

As for statistics...I have no obligation to provide them.  I wasn't quoting them so I don't have to provide them.

Your quote:
"I guess I'm having a senior moment here. Please remind me, just which Rapper was it who made "An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary."? And which Rapper was it who made "Piss Christ"?"

Like I said Tom, you need to read more carefully.  The first line of the paragraph was "How about music and art?"  I guessed you missed that.  And amazingly despite the fact that you did quote me, you missed "AN ART EXHIBIT."

No I didn't say rappers made art.  In case you need everything spelled out, "The Holy Virgin Mary" a modern somewhat abstract of Mary was made with elephant dung and clips from porno magazines, was made by Chris Ofilli.  His stuff wasn't quite so well known, until the exhibit in NY.  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/459846.stm

"Piss Christ" you should have know about.  The artist, if you can call him that, was Andres Serrano.
A photo and story:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~twt/serrano.html

There.  Does that solve your problem?  If that was your only point, I guess it's resolved.

Now this quote of yours:

"Why then do you lavish praise on everything he has done, and make up false claims about those who oppose him or who have opposed his parties policies in the past? "

Tom, now really.  You gotta do better than that.  You've made so many straw man arguments if anyone tossed you a match you'd disappear into a big fireball.

Now as for your sexuality...I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.  You raised this.  Seems like you're baiting the discussion, but unless you have an idea or issue to discuss, I'm not biting.
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David Schober

t(h)ik

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2004, 06:18:38 pm »

Thank you for not posting the pics and just giving the links....which I have the good fortune of abstaining from....

I mean, I don't have a TV and I don't listen to radio...except goofy talk radio....

Then there's this forum....imagine if I saw the elephant dung art.....sheesh....that would be worse than Britney Spears at the hardware store.....

FUKK, speaking of which....I have gone to inordinate lengths to escape...because I am fukked up....I live in Europe...no radio, no TV, only goofy feriners for friends and the REP and my music store is the best in the world, you can smoke a cigar while trying out the Les Pauls or Adam monitors and they serve Jack Daniels and Hefe Weizen...Erdinger as a matter of fact....yeah I know...great huh? but wait there's more they are super fukken cool and they even talk to people like me....and I can leave the store with like two grand worth of shit...but alas at the bistro (that's where the booze is) the play fukken Euro radio.....if you have never been here (Europe that is) they have like fukken 1500 years of bier culture and great food and no police beating the fukk out of you for parking your Harley on the sidewalk but get this.....THEY ONLY HAVE FUKKEN POP MUSIC ON THE RADIO.....FUKK ME...so well....yeah hope you didn't read this entire post....but if you did you are all welcome to come over and just chill and listen to some Ray Charles and Tool and Deicide and Buddy Guy....Even you fukken commies...

With Love and gratitude with major racist homophobia....

Your idiot friend in the Fatherland....(less gay that fago France)

TIK
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analog Tom

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2004, 02:00:06 pm »

Quote:

"Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue of busing was never that black kids were bussed out of their neighborhoods to another, poorer school. Back in the 50s kids went to their own, neighborhood schools. "
 

Feel free to stand corrected.  Busing was originally a southern device to get black kids away from their neighborhood white schools.  

What made busing for integration so terribly offensive to many 'conservative' segregationists was that it took their own idea and stood it on its head.  This was also what made Clinton so offensive to many conservatives - he took conservative positions and wrapped them in democrat rhetoric.  

Quote:

"You did the same on the firefighter issue. You must have some issue yourself because you started accusing me of lying about that. Sorry....no lie uttered."
 

What you said was that unions forced unsafe personnel rules onto an unsuspecting public.  That was untrue and a fabrication made solely to support a libel against unions and sexual integration of public services.  

Quote:

"As for statistics...I have no obligation to provide them."
 

You pretended that there was a public safety issue.  Your admission now is that you can't provide any support for that lie. Obligation grows from your false claim that there is a safety issue.  The problem is that despite any obligation, you have no ABILITY to provide such statistics, because the claim was knowingly false.  

Quote:

"Tom, now really. You gotta do better than that. You've made so many straw man arguments if anyone tossed you a match you'd disappear into a big fireball."
 

You mean straw-man arguments like lying about unions forcing safety problems onto the public?  Or like busing not being used to enforce segregation?  Or like the fact that you were an ardent Bush campaigner, indicating that you support his sociopathic policies?  

Its typical conservatism to simply deny history when it isn't convenient (yes, we did fund and train the taliban; yes, we did provide Saddam with the poison gas he used; yes, Israel did create, train and fund Hamas; yes, Colon did knowingly lie to the U.N.,etc. etc.).  

It is also fundamentalist conservative policy to evade fact based discussions by launching ad hominem attacks on the sexuality of their opponents. Thus my comment. Your response:  
Quote:

"Now as for your sexuality...I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. You raised this. Seems like you're baiting the discussion,"
may be accurate.  If you have not adopted the IO, JO, Mark, Philbeck style, then my comment was "baiting".  And it put you in a category in which you may not belong.  If so, I retract the bait.  

But the complete context, which points out that your post repeats false claims which have been made over and over, in a pattern of defending racial and sexual segregation, remains.  If you do not support such segregation, you should be more aware of the history, and less inclined to toss out anti-union, anti-women and anti-integration argument lines.  

Cordially,  
Tom  

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lucey

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2004, 02:36:02 pm »

David Schober wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 18:53


"Liberals have just been ruining America, eh?"
Yes...absolutely.  

The idea that anyone would allow partial-birth abortion is unconscionable.


"Partial Birth" is a lie and a manipulative term.

I have no problem with allowing Abortion ... why?  Because I value freedom and choice over governement administration of a religious value system.  And so should you.  It's a persons right, under the Christian God even, to have free will.

Neither do I have a problem with the Death Penalty ... in the cases where the offender is clearly guilty of multiple murders.

Yet most murder is a one off crime of passion, and in those cases I do not favor it.  And there are MANY cases of innocents being executed, or jailed for that matter, because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong 'look' to their skin or dress code.


Quote:


Liberals have given power to the teacher's unions so an incompetent teacher can keep their job at the expense of the student.  (And don't go carping about No Child Left Behind.  I have a family of educators in TX that, to their frustration, are dealing with massive improvements to the education system thanks to NCLB.  I'll be happy to discuss that in another post if anyone wants.)   I remember years ago when I lived in LA, the LA Times did a story on the fact that the LA Unified School district had too many failing students.  Their plan to fix this problem?  Stop giving failing grades! From then on, nobody got a grade below a "C."  You may think I'm joking, but this was no joke.  Liberal education beliefs have said we can't tell a student they got an answer wrong.  Because it might hurt their self-esteem.  Thus, in some classes 2+2 can equal 5.  


The teachers Union and ALL unions were not GIVEN their power, they earned it through suffering and negotiating with power ... the American Way.

2+2 = 4. In any school.  Exaggerating is no help to your cause.

My cousin is a career teacher and NCLB is not helping in Ohio.  Maybe in Texas and California your schools suck, and in that case you do need reform.  But in Ohio the teachers are good, and the NCLB rules are VERY counterproductive to real education and the welfare of the kids OR the teachers.

Bush ran in 2000 on states rights ... then he began to Federalize like no Rebuplican ever.  The first month he got rid of the Statewide elected Medical Pot laws in the West.  What a crock ..
states rights are good only if it draws out fundamentalists to vote against gays and for Bush in 2004, eh?

As for NCLB and the teacher rating system, if a school with the best teachers and the worst students can get B- averages, the teachers are punished.  Where a school with brighter kids and average teachers get an A-.

And as for as 'judging' children .. here's the FACTS:

Children learn DIFFERENTLY. Some will excell in certian systems and some will be crushed by those same systems.  Good education is not a strict system .. and NCLB is total bullshit in that regard.

In Texas, the NCLB thing was a big lie anyway, with kids that did poorly just kicked out to keep the numbers up.


Quote:


Liberal unions have made it illegal for fire fighters to give the same physical requirements to women as men.  This idiotic idea risks the lives of those of us who need help.  If you're ever in a burning building and need to be carried out, you'll be praying for a man to be the one to rescue you instead of a woman who couldn't do the strength requirements.


Unless you are a real fat ass, any woman firefighter is capable of pulling you out.  A different standard does not mean that public safety is at risk .. it's just a biological fact that women are not as strong.


Although I now see your pro male bias in everything you say.  Fuck compassion and sensitivity ... test, penalise and destroy for a better world!

Quote:


The welfare state has proven to be a pit of quicksand trapping generations of young minorities to repeat the cycle they were raised in.  Despite the billiions spent, these kids are worse then when welfare started.  To his credit, Clinton jumped on the conservative band wagon and made it his own.  Over the objections of his own party.


There is no welfare state. That's a lie.

There is a sense of victimization and thus entitlement in some people that comes form ... oh, maybe SLAVERY and not having the VOTE for 200 years?   I feel their pain, and although I do not believe in unfair entitlement - a fair playing field would be nice.  Like Chris Rock said "I dont want to win if I'm worse than a white guy, but if it's equal ... hell yes!   He's got a 400 year head start."

Thank God for the Chris Rocks' of the world who are intelligent and still true to their roots, while working to elevate the whole culture, black and white.



Racist as well as sexist, eh?  Are you from the south?  Still pissed about having to go a few extra steps for the less priveledged?



Quote:


Liberal lawyers like John Edwards have made OB doctors opt for a C-section in record numbers due to the massive chance of a lawsuit....driving up medical costs for everyone.

Shall I go on?


This is total spin and completely untrue.  The Federal Govnt has proven in non partisan studies even recently that lawsuits account for less than 2% of all healthcare cost increases.

Insurance costs, and drug costs ... the Conservative money machine ... are to blame for health care costs.  Are the pharmeceuticals and insurance companies contributing to Democrats?

Republicans are so far up the ass of the pharmeceuticals and insurers I really cant understand how any intelligent person would blame a lawyer who gets a few million for going before a JURY OF OUR PEERS to prosecute the MANY medical mistakes that a system that RUSHES people through at a very HIGH FEE is bound to cause.

What would you want for compensation if they cut off your dick instead of your gall bladder? What is the PERMANENT INFECTION in my friends breast worth from her botched surgery?  I say a jury of our peers is to blame, IF ANYONE is to blame ... certainly not a trial lawyer.  A lawyer is a necessary evil in a system that is about fairness and deliberation before the public.  If you hate lawyers, I understand ... but they are just doing their job.


So no judicial recourse for the common man ... no consumer protection .... screw blacks and women.  I see your points now.


Quote:


How about music and art?  Here's an interesting thing you can look at.  Go to the iTunes music store and click on the Billboard Hot 100 Charts for the year.  Start anywhere you want prior to 1990 or so and start clicking the year.  If your screen is like mine, you'll see the top 28 or so songs for the year.  Now start moving forward in time to 2003.  Notce anything? The number of explicit notices from 2000 goes up dramatically.  From none, to 2003, which had either a "clean" (as if you don't know what's being said) or an "Explicit" label.  In 2003 there were 11 out of the top 28 with this "status."  Young Buck is now being sought for stabbing somone at an awards show.  Rappers kill each other.  An art exhibit with elephant dung on an image of the Virgin Mary.  "Piss Christ"  a bottle containing a Crucifix in urine.  I'm aware enough to know that some music doesn't speak to me.  And that some art is a tough thing to understand.  But sometimes, like the art exhitibit with the elephant dung, it's just shit.

I'm not for censorship and I've been known to use a good word or two.  But what's bothersome is the modern liberal culture that ses this stuff and says, "Yeah!  That's art!"  But in 300 years that society will look back on us and see this crap is representative of the best we could offer??


Art mirrors life ... and this society is a fucked up mess.  The fact that an artist is the only one who can 'piss on christ' makes sense with the Religious Right in charge of governmemnt.

All the Religion in the world is not going to help this world, especially when it's forced by a government built on religious freedom from federal power, and when the enemy has opposing views and is more willing to suffer and die for them.  

Too bad you dont see that .. I guess you're white and male.









Capitalism and freedom get HARDER every day.

We can be PROGRESSIVE in the unfolding future or CONSERVATIVE and REGRESSIVE in response.
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Brian Lucey
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t(h)ik

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2004, 06:44:09 pm »

Brian...

All I can say bro...is

Fringe.

Chris Rock...intelligent?

200 years?

400 years?

Were you drunk when you posted?

Dude what the fukk does being a white male have to do with your political views?

What are Mr. Powell's views?

Condi?

Bill Cosby?

Most brothers I have ever met or lived with...

Dude if you think anyone owes anyone else anything besides common decency....dude....

United states 228 - 200 = 28? WTF?

Slavery?

What the fukk are you talking about....what the fukk does slavery have to do with anything...

Fringe....

Partial Birth...manipulation...

Most murder is crime of passion....for drugs?....

Dude I thought you were maybe just opinionated...but now I see you're French...


News Flash....capitalism is a direct result of freedom....uh hello....


I think when you said this society is a fukked up mess it became clear that you're just not a happy camper....

Won't you be my happy camping buddy?  

Pitching a tent and waiting in Germany....

TIK





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t(h)ik

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2004, 06:52:30 pm »

Tom,

Could you please provide any proof about the US selling poison gas to Saddam....Malice hasn't turned up anything.....

I would love to see something besides bullshit so I can join the anti-US crowd....

Still waiting for substance beyond that of a Britney Spears song.....

Love and condescension....

TIK
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lucey

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2004, 03:36:17 pm »

sixtiksix wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 18:44


Chris Rock...intelligent?


highly

Quote:


Dude what the fukk does being a white male have to do with your political views?


for most white males ... quite a bit.  ruling class fears, and all that comes with an ever diminishing position in a changing society.

Quote:


What are Mr. Powell's views?



before or after the white males got to him?

Quote:


Condi?



white male in disguise




Quote:


What the fukk are you talking about....what the fukk does slavery have to do with anything...



that's a white male angle you're comfortable with  i suppose.


Quote:


Partial Birth...manipulation...



the term was invented to persuade.  there is no birth in these procedures ... but it sure sounds horrible!

the Right hires a maketing guy to define all of it's policies, "clear skies initiative" "healthy forests act" ... it's all about FEELINGS and not facts.

Quote:


Most murder is crime of passion....for drugs?....



it's in the moment, not premeditated ... although yes, the drug war is now causing more murders by demonizing one way to get rich in poor communnities.

why are tobacco and alcohol companies owned by rich white men (in some cases near nazi's like Coors), but crack is illegal?

legalize the illegal drugs (in a pharmeceutically driven world) and prostitution and gambling in 50 states ... and watch the deficit go down, and the culture get more healthy as it accpet itself and gets REAL with what it is.

Include the weakest people and educate them .. do not prosecute their capitalism and demonize and marginalize and disenfranchise.

Quote:


Dude I thought you were maybe just opinionated...but now I see you're French...



aah, Paris!

so beautiful ...


Quote:


News Flash....capitalism is a direct result of freedom....uh hello....



News to you, there is no pure Capitalism.  It's regulated and rightly so.  Freedom is not unlimited, never has been.

And our economy is not the AIM of our country. America is not for the economy, the economy results from the society.


Quote:


I think when you said this society is a fukked up mess it became clear that you're just not a happy camper....



Blessed and happy with my life, sad to see this country in such bad shape, and the global economy with few constraints taking the US and the global environment down.
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Brian Lucey
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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2004, 10:43:52 pm »

Hello again Brian,

re: partial birth abortion:

you said:

"the term was invented to persuade. there is no birth in these procedures"

You're of course correct.  There is no birth per se.  But I'm not sure you totally understand what PBA is.  If you'd care to invent another term, I'll go with it and we can discuss it with this new name.  However, changing the name doesn't sanitize the proceedure to make it somehow morally right.

Care to argue the morality of the issue instead of terms?
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David Schober

t(h)ik

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2004, 09:00:19 am »

Brian,

As my counterpoint I would just like to submit your last post as my argument....

Chris Rock: highly intelligent counter to our government...

Prostitution, Drugs, Gambling, Abortion the honored values...

Condi and Colin have no value as professionals or role models they aren't "keeping it real"

I think you have finally won me over.  I can finally totally detach from reality....and start worshiping people for what they say and not what they do...

Stop demonizing crack dealers.....classic

Free at last!

Love and bewilderment....

TIK
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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2004, 03:56:01 pm »

David Schober wrote on Tue, 23 November 2004 22:43


You're of course correct.  There is no birth per se.  But I'm not sure you totally understand what PBA is.  If you'd care to invent another term, I'll go with it and we can discuss it with this new name.  However, changing the name doesn't sanitize the proceedure to make it somehow morally right.

Care to argue the morality of the issue instead of terms?


The morality is up to the people involved ... I leave that discussion for them.  Free will in the Bible is good enough for me, and there is no "thou shalt no stop a pregnancy through science" in there.

Everything is a miracle .. human birth is only one of many.

There IS a commandment .. what is it? ... Thou Shalt Not Kill ... so if we are going to say that there is no room for humans to interpret morality, and if you are to say that Free Will does not apply to pregnant women ...

Then what's up with this elective war in Iraq that has little to do with 9/11 except making Bin Laden look the genius and recruiting hundreds or thousands to Al qaeda ???  Seems like killing is the mandate in war... and yet Thou Shall Not Kill.  A moral dilemma indeed.

What about the Death Penalty in Texas that Gov. Bush liked to do so often? ... how is that "moral" if there is no room for human judgment in the Bible?






Oh ... the term is "abortion"


Main Entry: abor
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Brian Lucey
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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2004, 04:20:55 pm »

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 24 November 2004 09:00


As my counterpoint I would just like to submit your last post as my argument....



Yea .. but can you do it without misquoting or embellishing my ideas???


Quote:


Chris Rock: highly intelligent counter to our government...


Highly intelligent person.

Quote:


Prostitution, Drugs, Gambling, Abortion the honored values...


Not honored values, but good Capitalism and honorable Science in some arenas.

Quote:


Condi and Colin have no value as professionals or role models they aren't "keeping it real"



Colin sold his soul when he began lying to the UN and the American People

Condi is a mimic and a failure at her position.  Richard Clarkes documents, declassified this week, prove this beyond any doubt.

She is myopic on state-sponsored enemies and was undervaluing terror pre 9/11 and still today to some extent.  Her focus is the Cold War focus of rich white men for the last 50 years.


Quote:


I think you have finally won me over.  I can finally totally detach from reality....and start worshiping people for what they say and not what they do...



Reality is never easy ... but what they do is EXACTLY where I'm coming from.  What they say is bull, especially Condi and Colin.

Quote:


Stop demonizing crack dealers.....classic



It's not something I condone, drug use or crack sales, but it's the Free Market and an expression of Freedom  ... and that is the point of everything for the Right isn't it  ... the Free Market and Freedom?

Drug Dealers are the quintessential Republican Free Marketeers .. their taxes are so low, they pay nothing!!!  How cool is that fellow Republicans?

Seriously, the legal pharmeceutical reps are a little better then crack dealers as they do help in many cases, yet they are hardly moral.  Seen any ads lately?  Or are you aware of the price fixing against the wolrd AIDS market?  Or the fact that the Pill costs .25 to make and $25 to buy LONG after it has recoperated it's R+D costs by 1000 fold???

How about Americas dependency on pills instead of personal responsibility?  Seen any 5 year olds on pills prescribed by a Doctor and approved by a mom that's not a crackhead?  I have.



As for my defense of black Americans, their conditions are still in an infancy ... only 40 years young ... rich white men saw to that for as long as possible until brave black and white Liberals stood up to them.

In those 40 years, some blacks still feel victimized, some now act like rich white men, and a few have found real individuality and true freedom.

White people are doing, on percentage, about as well at growing beyond their family systems and the habits of their upbringing ... have a little compassion for the unhappy banker and the crackhead, both are suffering, we're all looking for Freedom and light.

The Bible says the light is through Christ, and only through Christ.  Many of us say and know that the light is in everyone, and this is threatening to power.

Ironically the Gospel according to Thomas, which was banished from Christianity in 300 AD ... said the same thing!  Scared the shit out of the church ... if the light is in everyone, how will we survive?

What is everyone had real freedom and took real responsibility???



No church!


Crap!
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Brian Lucey
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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2004, 06:19:37 pm »

Hi Brian,

You've raised an entire school of redherrings and I'm not fishing.  I've asked for your view on only one thing...partial birth abortion.  Not abortion in general...not war, the death penalty, who shot JFK.

Your quote
"are we allowed to use the science that God gave us the intelligence to create or not?"  

In the context of this discussion this quote is so bizzare I don't know how to reply.  Are you really saying abortion is somehow a creative process?  I'm certain you didn't mean to say that, but I'm not sure what that means.  If you're meaning that advances in science which allow us to kill each other is good, merely because we created the process, then I'll have to totally disagree with you on that.

But to the question I asked.  I'm looking for a liberal, progressive, whatever they want to call themselves that will at least acknowledge that PBA is an inhuman proceedure and shoud be banned.  So far I've yet to find one.  



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David Schober

lucey

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Re: Speaking of Jefferson
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2004, 10:20:16 am »

David Schober wrote on Wed, 24 November 2004 18:19

  If you're meaning that advances in science which allow us to kill each other is good, merely because we created the process, then I'll have to totally disagree with you on that.

But to the question I asked.  I'm looking for a liberal, progressive, whatever they want to call themselves that will at least acknowledge that PBA is an inhuman proceedure and shoud be banned.  So far I've yet to find one.



I refuse to discuss PBA on the basis that the definition is misleading and manipulative and funded by an AD agency.

I say that science is all fair grounds for moral choice, not dogmatic limitations.

Military weapons are science, and they kill people .. and that's all part of the human decision making process.

Made in Gods image rigtht?  So we all SHOULD be allowed to decide the tough questions ... not one religion.
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Brian Lucey
Magic Garden Mastering

"the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown
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