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Author Topic: How Ohio was Won  (Read 16907 times)

steve parker

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2004, 02:28:38 am »

get ready for this....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/politics/campaign/04conser ve.html

a victory for graceless christianity.

steve parker.
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robk

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2004, 05:18:03 am »

Disbelief, outrage - just two of many words that describe how I feel, and I see I'm far from alone in this.

I'd particularly like to thank Paul Frindle for making excellent points in this thread and stating them so clearly.

I'd also like add a "me too" to the following from Chris Hallam...

Hallams wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 02:00


From the viewpoint of many Christians, myself included, what is presented to the world by Bush?s Christianity is a clear misrepresentation of what the founder of Christianity was on about.



It troubles me greatly that many people will perceive that I carry the same label as Bush & co.

It also now troubles me that our own Tony Blair will be re-elected for a 3rd term next year  ...something I considered to be unthinkable only a couple of days ago.

Rob Kirkwood
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lucey

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2004, 10:24:00 am »

MedicineDog wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:59

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004


To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.


I agree with your sentiment here, but am not sure I can accept it.  What scares me is the opportunity for COMPLETE and unchecked mayhem from the conservative evangelical right in the next 4 years.  Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection now.  There may be an opportunity to appoint as many as 4 new (conservative) supreme court justices.  The Patriot Act will continue to infringe on our civil rights.  Intolerance will continue to reign.

While noble in concept, I don't think you can "reeducate" or "love" the evangelical right into changing their way of thinking.  Their whole credo is very similar to Bush's approach to terrorism - "You're either with us, or against us."  There's no middle ground with these people.  When you add to that the mix of right-wing radio continually screaming at the top of its lungs and corporate control of the airwaves - there's no hope for change any time soon.



The hope for change is YOU.    And if you quit ... we all lose.

The citizens who get America as a concept need to be more involved ... the Religious Right has organized since Goldwater lost ... they had Reagan ... and now Bush.




Our Democracy is failing because of poor education by those who vote and devious tricks by their leaders.  We cannot control that.

We CAN control the assumption of superiority by those of us who understand the Constitution. And we can act ..we can do better.

Get off your ass and drop the "it's hopeless" cynicism and DO something.   Arguing about how much it's a lost cause is pathetic and a total waste of everyone's time.  Rove is an evil genius.  the Right will not stop in 2008.  Time is wasting.


Democracy means people-rule, demos cratos ... so RULE, or be ruled.  It's a contest ... and we're losing.

Stop talking like an ingrateful American, like democracy should just work without you fighting for freedom and justice, like it should be easy ... stop acting like losers and act like citizens ... like fighters ...





Only a small % of the Bush voters need to connect across the aisle.    This is hardly hopeless and you'll excuse my anger toward cynical  intellignece.

I can be compassionate for ignorance and fear ... that's humanity for all time ... but lazy, or cynical, or quitter responses to this loss from intelligent people are just too much.
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Brian Lucey
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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2004, 10:58:55 am »

We need to galvanize those who refrained from voting: youth (20-something) turnout this years was about the same as in 2000, yet they possibly have the most to lose with the re-election of Bush. Not to sound sexist, but where was the outrage among women? Kerry should have garnered 30 million female votes if women want to retain the right to control their own bodies. It's like Richard Farina sang back in the 60s:

For I am a wild and a lonely child
And the child of an angry man
Now with the high wars raging
I would offer you my hand
For we are the children of darkness
And the prey of a foul command.

Children of Darkness, Richard Farina ca. 1965
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PRobb

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2004, 11:23:31 am »

Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 05:17

I'm an atheist. A death metal musician. An admirer of Anton LaVey. Not a big fan of Jesus.

And yet, I think Christian conservatives are less dangerous and less fanatical than liberals. Go figure.  Laughing

Except maybe the real wackos like Jerry Falwell, who celebrated the 9/11 attack as a punishment from God. It's funny how the far right and the far left converge.


Here is one of the basic differences between the liberals and the Christian Conservatives. If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned. If the Christian right gets the country they really want, atheism and death metal music would be illegal. And saying the name LaVey in public would land you in jail.

You must understand the  "wackos like Jerry Fallwell" are Bush's core support. They are the people who were brought to the polls by the anti gay marriage crap. They are the people who put Bush over the top.  They are the people who will be running this country.
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Wyn Davis

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2004, 12:05:30 pm »

I just posted this so I could use my new signature text.
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Wyn Davis
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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2004, 12:42:38 pm »

robk wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:18


It also now troubles me that our own Tony Blair will be re-elected for a 3rd term next year  ...something I considered to be unthinkable only a couple of days ago.

Rob Kirkwood


I would expect Blair to be re-elected for exactly the same reasons that Bush has prevailed. From what I can see at this distance the American and British populations are pretty well aligned in their divisions about the current regimes, the same cynicism and sadly the same nationalism. And in the UK we have the added disadvantage of having no other credible candidates Sad
However, we may be saved somewhat by the fact that there is far less religious fundamentalism in the UK?
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Gregg Seibert

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2004, 01:00:07 pm »

I saw an interview on ABC News Now with the chief investigative reporter for al Jazeera (sp?) in London in the wee hours of election night.  He was asked what he thought a Bush victory would mean to the Arab world.  He responded that his thought was that the  American affirmation of Bush would be used as a justification for more violence against innocent Americans.  It was a very disturbing thougnt.
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t(h)ik

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2004, 01:04:20 pm »

Speaking of Death Metal, I can't believe that Deicide couldn't find a decent place to record for 20 Grand.  And as far as the religious wackos go, what would we do without them?  Thank god for them, they are the sole source of inspiration for art and music by believers and non believers alike.  I mean Jesus Tap Dancing Christ, from the great cathedrals of Europe to Gospel Music, from the great works of literature to Black Metal to the Blues Brothers.  Man's insistence that all us poor bastards conform to a god is what makes us perform at our best (meaning artistically)...besides trying to get pussy(meaning gay pop losers).  I really don't know what to say to comfort those throughout the world that feel the absolute dismay because my countrymen reelected the tea totaler but, well hey, you should have gotten you citizenship and voted you lazy bastards.  Or well hey brothers there's always Jack Daniels...  

When you throw around that casualty number you put yourself in the same bucket as those you accuse...ignorant believers....

By the way I would never vote for Bush in a million years and would not vote for Kerry in three million...but I agree with Pricey, the liberals scare the living shit out of me and I too am an atheist, Death Metal drummer and Blues Rock singer....shit I don't know it may just come down to testoterone.....

OK joking....

No matter what, I love all you guys for taking the time to help others on this forum no matter what your stupid politics are...
And as one of our greatest living Americans, Colin Powell once said, "Things will always look better in the morning"




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PRobb

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2004, 01:30:29 pm »

sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:04

but I agree with Pricey, the liberals scare the living shit out of me and I too am an atheist, Death Metal drummer and Blues Rock singer



Why? Can you or Pricey explain this? Seriously, I can't comprehend where this is coming from.  Please help me understand.
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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PRobb

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2004, 01:38:50 pm »

Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:22

PRobb wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:23

If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned.

What universe are you living in? The Democratic Party is the #1 proponent of censorship. Gore and Lieberman ran on a "clean up the media" platform which was aimed at criminalizing sex and violence in movies and video games. The Dems especially want to censor political speech.

In a choice between the Puritans and the Communist Party, the Puritans are marginally less dangerous.


Not criminalizing, labeling. As to censoring political speech, that would be the "PC" crowd, which is an academic fringe movement that gets press way ouy of proportion to thier influence. And, of course, I think think they're wrong. Free speech means free speech.
The first amendment to the constitution is a pretty fair summation of the core of traditionnal liberal thinking.
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MedicineDog

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2004, 02:07:56 pm »

lucey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 07:24


Get off your ass and drop the "it's hopeless" cynicism and DO something.   Arguing about how much it's a lost cause is pathetic and a total waste of everyone's time.


I seemed to have touched a nerve.

I really admire your spirit here.  It's admirable that you still feel the election process here in the U.S. is open, fair and balanced enough to actually allow unscripted change.  It's not.

As a country we've turned a very dark corner in the past several years.  The general media no longer exercises (or protects) its 1st Amendment rights.  They only report what is acceptable to their corporate parents, or what the government clears them for.  To even get an inkling of "the other side" of most current issues you have to tune into the likes of the Daily Show or Bill Maher.

We now vote (for the most part) with machines that,in most states, do not have an audit-able paper trail.  These same machines have proven to be quite hackable, the votes changed, with absolutely NO TRAIL of the hacking left behind.  How can you possibly think we can change ANYTHING in the voting booth?  Not te mention the unbelievable conflict of interest with Diebold (the maker of many of these machines).  The CEO is a very vocal supporter of Bush's administration.  He even PROMISED to deliver the votes in Ohio for Bush.  Come on, step away from the bong long enough to let the smoke clear!

You talk about it only taking a few individuals to reach across the isle to accomplish change.  Which individuals would this be?  Do you mean the ones who don't have any corporate backing, no pork to spread, and no personal agendas?  Please let me know when you find one of those, I'd like to shake their hand.

Everything that goes on in our government is bought and paid for by PAC money, corporate "gifts" and favors.  If you really feel those things don't affect how unscripted or honest change is stifled, I think you're missing the big picture standing behind your activism.

It's one thing to say "quit complaining, just vote them out".  How would you recommend doing that?  You site the changes in the 60s and the build of the conservative movement as proof that change can happen.  The dark side you're missing is that no one who was a demonstrator or vocal activist in the 60s could just be labeled an "enemy combatant" and thrown in jail for an indefinite period with no representation, and for no reason.  That can happen now.  It has ALREADY happened to some of our citizens.

Quote:

Stop talking like an ingrateful American, like democracy should just work without you fighting for freedom and justice, like it should be easy ... stop acting like losers and act like citizens ... like fighters ...


Hmmm... an ingrateful American, huh?  First time I've ever been called that.  I guess I should've put on my superhero cape before I came in here.

You may think my point of view is defeatist and that I'm acting like a loser, but I think my point is quite relevant.  You think things can change?  From the dawn of time NOTHING has changed.  There will always be a group of individuals in power and they will do anything they can to maintain that power.  They will lie, they will cheat, they will even kill, to maintain their stranglehold on the their power, and on the people they control.  That's ALWAYS what it's been about.  It always will be what it's about.  To quote George Carlin, "Fuck Hope!"

So, pardon me if I don't get up and sing a fight song with you.  I have seen NOTHING from this administration that indicates to me they have any thought of listening to "the other side".  They rule by fear and division.  Their right wing evangelical agenda will be so entrenched by the time they leave office that I truly believe it will take a civil war to give the government back to the people.  It surely doesn't belong to us now.

For the record, I voted (always have).  I also was the head of our precinct's democratic primary committee, a delegate to our state's primary, worked at several democratic rallies for Kerry (supplied the sound system and labor at no charge), along with other things like making "get out the vote" calls, etc.

What did you do?
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lucey

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2004, 03:16:11 pm »

MedicineDog wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 14:07


For the record, I voted (always have).  I also was the head of our precinct's democratic primary committee, a delegate to our state's primary, worked at several democratic rallies for Kerry (supplied the sound system and labor at no charge), along with other things like making "get out the vote" calls, etc.


so why all the hopeless talk?  

Hope is earned, not a given, and we need to be smarter in the future to earn some.

George Carlin is great and I love the guy .. but he's your Jesus ... and he's wrong about some things. Hope is real and it's the fuel the precedes everything good in life .. otherwise we'd have entropy rule far worse than today.

Cynics on the Left are worthless ... and all of your volunteering is countered 10 fold by those people that will read your words here and be LESS inclined to do something productive for the cause of America's true values.

Democracy is not for cynics or dogmatists... but for individuals with open minds and a willingness to dialog and pursue truth.   Obviously the Evangelicals and the new right is not this way ... and if you act similarly, what chance is there?

Your actions and words are as hypocritical as the evangelicals who believe in the Rapture yet also want to control the world until then.

Quote:


What did you do?


Keeping score is impossible and silly, we're on the same team ... but since you've asked:

I actively identified and spoke to a number of undecided voters in Ohio, showing them why Kerry was better for them personally and for America generally.  This was at peril to my financial interests or personal image in some cases.

I gave over $500 hard earned dollars to various groups as I could afford to and thought it necessary, even $25 last week to help Daschle fight Thune and $25 for the Colorado Senate race, when I didn't have it to spare.

I daily informed people on the web and the street as to our Constitutional basis, history and intent ... both Leftist cynics and Right leaning fear and control types.

I refused to give in to failure or powerlessness or victimization, the lazy alternative for intellectuals.



Your mind has turned negative emotions into a destructive force for change, instead of harnessing them as a constructive force for truth.  
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Brian Lucey
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lucey

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2004, 03:32:45 pm »

Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:22

PRobb wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:23

If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned.

What universe are you living in? The Democratic Party is the #1 proponent of censorship. Gore and Lieberman ran on a "clean up the media" platform which was aimed at criminalizing sex and violence in movies and video games. The Dems especially want to censor political speech.

In a choice between the Puritans and the Communist Party, the Puritans are marginally less dangerous.


Wow .. you are really dreaming here!  Gore and Lieberman are over, done, not relevent... that was an in-the-moment strategy aspect, not an overall liberal plan for all time.

With a worldview like this you cannot be in league with either liberals (your true friends that you fear) or social fascists (the conservatives you have chosen to feel safe around)

Your imagination has constructed a no win isolationism and I feel for you.

Let's look at facts 2004:

Liberals are INCLUSIVE by definition and liberals are the card carrying ACLU members  .... the Right we have now is CONTROLLING and DOGMATIC and they want to define morality for you.  They are NOT the small government and personal freedon conservatives of yesteryear.

Today's Right wants to define education as training-based .. bassically, pre corporate.  Forget the liberal arts ... or the arts generally ... that is WAY TOO RISKY to the stronghold of narrow so-called values they want for you and me.


Pricey you're bound to suffer with preconceptions like this ... the Liberals need your passion for freedom and truth on our side.  And once you accept which side you are truly on, you can help shape the platform.

As is you are alone and lost without a social circle.   Think it over.
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Brian Lucey
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t(h)ik

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2004, 04:56:50 pm »

OK man I'll explain it to you.  You see, even though my band is not so good, Death Metal really keeps your drum chops up.  And the Blues gig is really great for chicks......

Or um, you mean explain the liberal thing....well OK like let's say you read an artical by oh hell....Pat Buchanan, I mean this guy even ran for Pres and so did David Duke and well let's say they are a little to the right.   They don't scare me because there will always be enough Americans  to shout or shoot (remember Wallace) them down .  But the liberals have a real chance to take the country over through their insidious propaganda that is just as bad but David Duke doesn't get 50 million votes, and when someone repeats some bullshit facist propaganda or makes racist comments fortunately the world has gotten to the point to well, look what happened to Rush Limbaugh, he got his ass fired recently and he should have gotten sued cause he's a fukkbag and totally detached from reality.  But these other fukk bags on the left go completely unchecked and people vote for liberals so they can get my fukken tax money.

So I don't mean to say that one side is better than the other, just that the libs are now an immediate threat and I am glad they got fukken stuffed....and since this is a saloon, all these cats that are saying America is fukked up right now can take a walk, because most of them just sit on their fat asses while the US is out stopping genocides in Yugoslavia and giving the North Koreans rice so they don't fukken starve to death and when things get a little difficult or don't turn out the way they preconcieve the world they come out from evey rock and start saying shame on the US.  Well then do something damn you, get off you fat Canuck and Euro asses and get down to the Sudan or stop the Madman from North Korea from Nukken fukken Tokyo....

By the way, since I currently reside here in my wonderful European host nation and have lived around the world I am happy to report that we are all the same, you, me, them, everybody, everybody....and to anyone who is still hanging with this thread....love ya...your friend in Germany,

TIK
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