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Author Topic: How Ohio was Won  (Read 17016 times)

Fibes

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2004, 01:55:03 pm »

All opinions aside, W is not half the man his father is, why he deserves another term is beyond me utilizing that simple concept alone. Any president that does not threaten to veto or veto on single thing in 4 years is a puppet without any balls. A very expensive puppet mind you.

We will lose countless lives in late Novemeber in NW Iraq, something that should have happened two-six months ago given the situation over there. If you are going to fight a war for Mithra's sake fight the fucking thing rather than simply pissing off your enemy and gaining new ones in the process because you don't have any damn balls. I'm so sick, I could puke.

BTW Howard Dean would have won, he had enthusiasm, oh wait, that's what, that's what the country frowned on him for. Values! He acted like he gave a shit and the media pissed on him.

Libertarian who voted democrat out.
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MedicineDog

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2004, 01:59:10 pm »

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004


To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.


I agree with your sentiment here, but am not sure I can accept it.  What scares me is the opportunity for COMPLETE and unchecked mayhem from the conservative evangelical right in the next 4 years.  Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection now.  There may be an opportunity to appoint as many as 4 new (conservative) supreme court justices.  The Patriot Act will continue to infringe on our civil rights.  Intolerance will continue to reign.

While noble in concept, I don't think you can "reeducate" or "love" the evangelical right into changing their way of thinking.  Their whole credo is very similar to Bush's approach to terrorism - "You're either with us, or against us."  There's no middle ground with these people.  When you add to that the mix of right-wing radio continually screaming at the top of its lungs and corporate control of the airwaves - there's no hope for change any time soon.

I, for one, am incredibly angry that I now live in a country where the majority of voters think that two gay people exchanging rings in a marriage ceremony is more of a concern to them than losing their own personal freedoms, being sold out to big corporations, or the lives of 100,000 innocent men, women and children.  Disgusting.

Let's remember that people had to sign a "loyalty oath" before they could get into a Bush function.  Check the history books, the last time that happened it was a guy named "Hitler" doing it.

My thinking is that I need to get out while I still can.
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barefoot

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2004, 02:11:16 pm »

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:34


I was asked in a PM .. "what to do?" do we relive the 20s and exPatriate?

No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right......

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.


Brian,

I know what you're saying is the right thing to do.  But honestly, I'm having trouble staying as altruistic and civic minded as you.   The direction this country is heading makes me feel like packing up and washing my hands of the whole thing.   My wife and I are already sacrificing dearly to put our 5 yr old daughter in a school where she can get a world class education, learn other languages and real science, and gain an expansive and open minded world view.   Why should we go through all this just to have her grow up in a society where none of what she learns is even valued?   In fact it's denigrated.  

What is a country but the people who live in it?   And when all connection with the majority of those people seems lost, what is one left with?  

I live in the most progressive area of the whole country.   And still I feel the weight of this fundamentalist movement bearing down on me and my family.   My wife lost a brother in the first Gulf war.   Her dead brother's son is now fighting in this one.  If we're not safe from this insanity in San Francisco, then where?  

Sometimes I'm really inclined to just ditch this place and let the morons stew in their own shit.   I know it's not right, but I'm starting to feel worn out.      

Thomas
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zakco

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2004, 02:16:29 pm »

MedicineDog wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 10:59


I, for one, am incredibly angry that I now live in a country where the majority of voters think that two gay people exchanging rings in a marriage ceremony is more of a concern to them than losing their own personal freedoms, being sold out to big corporations, or the lives of 100,000 innocent men, women and children.  Disgusting.



I couldn't agree more.
This election proved to the entire world where America's priorities REALLY lie.

America is starting to remind me of a dog I once had....Big, powerful, kind at heart, but completely afraid of it's own shadow. In many ways, he was a great companion, but when frightened, he would attack instantly before realizing what was really happening.
His short life was spent in a constant state of fear and distrust.

America needs some serious counselling.

Shame, shame, shame.

steve parker

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2004, 02:23:18 pm »

Quote:

he direction this country is heading makes me feel like packing up and washing my hands of the whole thing.


the trouble is that there is no part of the planet isolated from the effects of US decisions.
half of america deserve what they're getting.
but the rest of the world have just watched the school bully vote to remain a bully.
when the world's heads are flushed down toilets, sooner or later they retaliate...
....oh no...wait....that's terrorists.....my mistake.....

Sad

steve parker
(a charismatic evangelical christian thankfully living in a SECULAR country)
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lucey

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2004, 02:57:22 pm »

barefoot wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:11

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:34


No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right......

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.


Brian,

I know what you
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Brian Lucey
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2004, 03:29:07 pm »

Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 15:15

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49

I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  


Because 62% of this country still believes that Saddam Hussein had direct complicity in the bombing of the world trade center.

That's a bill of goods sold to them by this administration, however accidentally they make it seem.  One does not have to read very much to understand the reality of our involvement over there.

I do not think it is unreasonable to talk about the ignorance of a large part of this country.

Nika
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PookyNMR

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2004, 03:40:13 pm »

Nika Aldrich wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:29

I do not think it is unreasonable to talk about the ignorance of a large part of this country.

Nika


Not to offend anyone, but most other countires (like Canada) see American citizens as hideously ignorant and myopic.

Nathan
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Nathan Rousu

barefoot

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2004, 04:13:47 pm »

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 11:57



Great points Thomas.  Of course a little disappointment is human.  But to live in truth is the greatest gift to humanity or to ourselves .. so we must CELEBRATE this day for the truth about America is finally  clear....................................................... ................................................

We all need to work together to stop this trend of Polarity and Dogma.  

Religion is easy ... cynicism is easy ... separation is easy ... love is hard, courage is hard, reaching out is hard. standing up is hard.

The Right stands with God for their crutch ... and we must stand with Truth.

Very wise words indeed, Brian.

Since the day my daughter entered the world she has shown with such and undeniably bright light.  And her light grows with every day.   I say this with the pride of a parent and as much objectivity as I can muster in this regard.   At times like this it’s very tempting to want to teach her the theories of the world, yet sequester her from its realities, keeping her to ourselves - almost feeling that the world is undeserving of her.   But I know this is impossible.   We’re all interconnected and part of this organism we call humanity - and the greater organism of our earth.   We can’t hide from it any more than we can hide from ourselves.  And when some of us fall ill, we all fall ill.  

I do know what my responsibilities are towards making this a better place to live.  And I know the example I must set for my daughter, so she understands her responsibilities in the world – especially with the great gifts she finds in her possession.   But occasionally it's good to hear some inspirational words to remind me.  

Thanks,
Thomas
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Thomas Barefoot
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PRobb

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2004, 04:26:49 pm »

Paul Frindle wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:14


IMVHO and experience there is nothing more dangerous to humanity than people who have found reason to believe their convictions are divinely blessed and therefore unassailable. The reason that 'faith' and its accompanying simplistic reactions are so compelling and infectious is that they require less effort and consideration in their wholesale adoption.




Wow. Thank you for saying that so beautifully. That is one of the most basic concepts our nation was founded on. There is only one one mention of religion in the Constitution and it is:

Article IV
Clause 3:  The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.  
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Rob Darling

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2004, 05:16:56 pm »

With absolute conviction and belief, in challenge to the entire world, we stand sqarely in the shoes of Germany in 1938.  With this election, we have opened the door to an altogether new, previously unknown level of worldwide destruction, polarization, and suffering.  We can still pull back from the brink- there may in fact be enough spine left in our people, and the structure of our Democracy still is filled with enough checks and balances to help them do what they need to do.  But the fact is that the violence we unleash in our massive effort to maintain an ignorance of the evidence of our failures and wrongs can only be expressed in terms of this strength- they must be spoken of in these terms.  Because until enough people make enough noise, the sheep will not wake up and we will all have ended up in the slaughterhouse.  

As a New Yorker, I am among those who payed heavily the first time that those we face in challenge came to symbolically destroy America.  I am very concerned that next time, they will really destroy us.  All so a bunch of ignorant, self-deceiving, fear-driven fools can live an empty life on the cheap.

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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2004, 07:17:47 pm »

Techne wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 18:46

We had the opportunity to prove to the world that the majority of our people are intelligent, globally minded individuals who do not see the world as an "us vs. them" situation.  I'm ashamed to say that we've failed.  I don't think that the problem was in informing/educating people, information often justifies flawed beliefs and gives a false sense of dignity.  

Knowledge is not wisdom.  

The reality of all this (as we've now blatently admited to the world) is that many Americans, deep down, are self serving elitists who do not care one iota what goes on outside our borders.  Foreign policy to these people is always either an offense or defense.  
It's going to be a long, long 4 years.


I don't believe that 50% of americans are self serving elitists, that is absolutely NOT my impression. America is a great and noble country that has much to be proud of and (used to) command deserved respect globally. It all boils down to what is classed as knowledge in a world where absolutely everything we see and hear is subject to spin and prompted interpretation.

The sadness for me for both America and the U.K is that we (or 50% of us at least) have allowed ourselves to be manipulated by the most astonishing lies imaginable - fuelling the most idiotic witch hunt of all time - into believing that the people that serve us are our only hope of survival, from a threat our very leaders themselves have moulded and manipulated to their own advantage. The only thing this mania serves is to provide a platform to support their power base. This is very dangerous stuff indeed as it not only divides America - it divides the whole world.

As someone who was around in the 60's watching so called communists rounded up and tried, when we were sold the idea that the USSR was a malignant organisation that threatened our whole lifestyles, the spectre of our combined forces picking around Afganistan looking for a couple of disaffected religious dissidents who are actually outcasts from their own religion, and being told that there is somehow a global organisation hell bent on (yet again) attacking our whole lifestyle - and of course being told that we should live in fear and intrepidation and that 'they' are the only ones capable of offering us respite from this terrible threat - is frankly deja vue. When I was 10 years old even, I considered the whole communist witch hunt an ammusement, surely no-one could really believe it, could they? - But that was before I realised the damage that false information deliberately instilled into the population could cause!

And as for Iraq - well this has to be the pinnacle of deception. Absolutely nothing that has been claimed as evidence of an imminent threat posed by Iraq has turned out to have any truth what so ever. So deep and obvious are the lies, that honest people have been driven to suicide. How obvious must the lies and manipulation become before people wake up to the sick nature of the society we are buying into?! Can people not see it's all manufactured?

There have always been looneys capable of commiting atrocities and terrorists fuelled by disaffected societies desperate for redress. Hell we created our own here in the U.K 30 years ago by gunning down protesters who campaigned for a united Ireland - and those people bombed us almost monthly for 30 years thereafter. ETA have bombed France for decades - hell the bank over the road from where I lived in Paris was flattened twice in the 3 years I lived there. The difference then was that it was not 'expedient' for the governments involved to 'draw attention' to it let alone use it political capital.

What we are seeing now IMVHO is such a decline in the very fundamental basis of our societies and standards of faith that governments, bereft of any further raison d'etre have resorted to the methods of political dictators to provide us with a platform for their existence. As these people struggle ever-further to maintain their power by marching roughshod over the wider world, this has become a global issue of grave importance. The outcome of all this now effects the whole world and all peoples of the world are involved in its threat.

We had a chance to perhaps begin to start turning this whole mess around during these last few days, but sadly the people charged with the onerous responsibility of this particular battle - flunked out this time. But I cannot find it in my heart to blame them - the task has become just too big, even for the mighty american people Sad One can only speculate how far the damage of the next 4 or 5 years will spread. But in the final analysis I personally do trust the people's power to sort such things out - albeit after many pointless deaths have occurred.
People are simply not as thick and powerless as dictators (consumed by their zeal for ever more power), always end up assuming.

Apologies for rant - I will shut up now.
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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2004, 07:35:08 pm »

Quote:

 

Let's remember that people had to sign a "loyalty oath" before they could get into a Bush function.  Check the history books, the last time that happened it was a guy named "Hitler" doing it.

My thinking is that I need to get out while I still can.


One last word - exactly!
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Hallams

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2004, 09:00:05 pm »



I read a post a while back that mentioned ?the world is watching America.???..In Australia the Liberal Government, a proud supporter of Bush?s war in  Iraq, was re elected with an increased majority in the lower house and control of the Senate, our house of review. Voting is compulsory so I can only accept that the majority of Australians don?t see things as I do. Many lies of our Government have been exposed yet they still won! Liars whose policy contributes to the death of 100,000 innocent civilians still have credibility in the eyes of the democratic majority. I find it very hard to accept.
What I saw in a new way for Aust politics was one of our most influential contemporary churches seemingly aligning itself with the Liberal Party.
 
My great hope was that Bush would not be re elected.

While I share common ground with those who feel the same way about your newly re elected President I feel the need to clarify some perspectives.

?Yet we, America, all of us ... have collectively reelected a man with failed policies from every viewpoint except Christian Faith. Fact.?

From the viewpoint of many Christians, myself included, what is presented to the world by Bush?s Christianity is a clear misrepresentation of what the founder of Christianity was on about.

I am sure the founder of Christianity has pretty strong opinions on matters relating to injustice and oppression not to mention the unequal distribution of wealth within nations and inter-nationally. Then there are the issues related to the pursuit of wealth at the expense of others and how power can have a corrupting influence.

Like many words the word ?Christianity? has many meanings, so much so that I don?t even want to call myself a Christian, as I am so for away from the false assumptions  that it inspires that can be mostly attributed to Fundamentalism?..simplistic world views??.immature black and white, you are with us or against us dogmatic rhetoric.

For a Christian perspective that is a well informed alternative to you know what etc check out:
http://www.sojo.net/

?Religion is easy ... cynicism is easy ... separation is easy ... love is hard, courage is hard, reaching out is hard. standing up is hard.?

I will finish my little rant from down under with a quote from J.F Kennedy

?The Life of the Arts? far from being an interruption, a distraction in the life of a nation, is close to the centre of a nations purpose and is a test of the quality of a nations civilization .?

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Loco

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2004, 12:40:16 am »

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 17:16

With absolute conviction and belief, in challenge to the entire world, we stand sqarely in the shoes of Germany in 1938.


Homeland security officers... Gestapo officers... whatever. A business-driven war by an ultra-nationalist ego supported by people that follow flags and not ideas or facts. Every country deserve its government. And this one is staying because nobody has done something about it. Democracy has been fooled twice in a row... should you keep playing those rules when they are not?

Too much thinking... too many images come to my mind... I don't want to have those dreams again
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya

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